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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 7349921" data-attributes="member: 23751">The causal process cannot continue without the fiction.&nbsp; It's impossible for you to use the UMD skill to ignite a fireball in 3.5 without the causal process going through the fiction.&nbsp; It can't be done and still be playing the roleplaying game.&nbsp; Player declares his PC is using UMD on the wand of fireballs.&nbsp; There is no next step of roll and check the numbers as both the skill and the wand require fictional existence within a PC AND for the PC to attempt to use the wand via the skill.&nbsp; So the next step in the process must be for the fictional character to have those things and make an attempt.&nbsp; Once that attempt is made within the fiction, THEN you can engage the mechanics to see what happens, but you still aren't done.&nbsp; The effect takes place within the fiction, so you have to back there to continue or finish the process.&nbsp; The fireball goes off in the fiction if the skill is successful, and often the process continues back to the real world for some book keeping, but that isn't always the case.&nbsp; Cause and effectThere is a true number within the fiction.&nbsp; It just requires the DM to let the players know what that is.&nbsp; Once he does, that number given will have been the correct one the entire time.&nbsp; And while the DM can't guess it it, being for the purposes of the game a god who knows all, the players can guess at it all day long.&nbsp; The DM knows the objective answer having determined it, and he doesn't have to tell the players who can guess and guess and guess.&nbsp; There's nothing that says that a causal process is invalidated if it is created or involves fiction, rather than discovered and entirely in the real world.&nbsp; All that is required is that cause lead to effect.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 7349921, member: 23751"] The causal process cannot continue without the fiction. It's impossible for you to use the UMD skill to ignite a fireball in 3.5 without the causal process going through the fiction. It can't be done and still be playing the roleplaying game. Player declares his PC is using UMD on the wand of fireballs. There is no next step of roll and check the numbers as both the skill and the wand require fictional existence within a PC AND for the PC to attempt to use the wand via the skill. So the next step in the process must be for the fictional character to have those things and make an attempt. Once that attempt is made within the fiction, THEN you can engage the mechanics to see what happens, but you still aren't done. The effect takes place within the fiction, so you have to back there to continue or finish the process. The fireball goes off in the fiction if the skill is successful, and often the process continues back to the real world for some book keeping, but that isn't always the case. Cause and effect There is a true number within the fiction. It just requires the DM to let the players know what that is. Once he does, that number given will have been the correct one the entire time. And while the DM can't guess it it, being for the purposes of the game a god who knows all, the players can guess at it all day long. The DM knows the objective answer having determined it, and he doesn't have to tell the players who can guess and guess and guess. There's nothing that says that a causal process is invalidated if it is created or involves fiction, rather than discovered and entirely in the real world. All that is required is that cause lead to effect. [/QUOTE]

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