Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7350854" data-attributes="member: 82106">I think there aren't sides. There's a continuum, but to the extent that the player's exercise agency in a game, that's a move in the direction of player-centered play, to whatever degree. I mean, I think the continuum is like, at one extreme is a GM authored narrative with no actual player input. The players simply make choices where they have no idea what the consequences of the choices are and they might as well be coin-flips (no real game is like this obviously). At the other end is some sort of collective free-association exercise where everything is a suggestion and anyone can establish any 'move' in the game simply by asserting it (honestly I'm not even sure this IS the other end of the spectrum, its actually hard to be sure where you go past a certain point). Again, this doesn't exist, or isn't really meaningfully an RPG anymore.So, REAL games have an element in which the GM addresses the player's agenda. They make decisions in (and maybe out) of character that have some impact on the narrative. To the extent that the narrative is shaped in a way that reflects their agendas, which is addressing the fictional topics which the players are attempting to bring forth, as opposed to those being suggested by the GM purely for her own reasons, these are player-facing games. Likewise, even if the players are driving basically every aspect of the game, they are going to still have to rely on a GM to be some sort of 'bringer of frames', someone who establishes how the genre logic of the situation will be applied and which possibility becomes new fictional position, at least when the players cannot do so. Most games have some 'zone' in which the GM always does this. Again, I'm not sure how weak the GM's influence can become before the game stops being a game. Maybe some of the other people in this thread have something to say on that point.Well, the question might be, is 'Gygaxian play' on this continuum, is it a totally different sort of game, and if it is on the continuum, where? I think that Gygaxian Play is 'game over all else', that is, it is an ultimately and virtually completely gamist enterprise. Is RP important in that mode of play? No, not really, or the rules wouldn't just gank off characters left and right, nor emphasize being able to create a new one in 1 minute flat. There's even a place in OD&D where the rules say to introduce the new character immediately, logic be damned. This is fine as a game concept, just pop in the new guy! As RP its incoherent. Now, maybe in another place Gygax says "yeah, come up with some sort of lampshade for this, maybe wait till the PCs get to a new room and put the character there" or something like that. I'd note that all the advice in DMG about time tracking is a must and etc is all in the same vein. Its not about REALISM, its about making time into a fungible sort of currency that characters have to spend in order to get certain things done! If you don't track it, then its not really a resource, just like if you told the PCs "hey, don't worry about gold, you can have whatever stuff you want." I guess "keep track of money" was too obvious to actually make into advice though! So, I'm loath to draw too many conclusions from dungeon crawling OD&D. I think it has deliberate elements to add player agency, but it is also intended to act as a test of skill and not a story telling experience, at least in its most archetypal form. I believe that as soon as Gygax went beyond that then things were added to the game like "let the player find a blank spot on the map for his fighter to build a keep on and let him decide what the spot looks like, etc. within reason"</blockquote>

Verification