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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7351616">I think I wrote about this a while back: while things like Plot Points increase player agency, allowing (as some people call it) &quot;stage setting&quot; by the players, they are at least in 5E, an optional part of the game and therefore subject to DM approval.Which is sort of the &quot;trick&quot; to player agency, (and always has been, in D&amp;D at least) that D&amp;D provides very little hard-coded player agency.&nbsp; 4E was probably the strongest on providing player agency and as I recall there was quite a bit of lament over &quot;taking away power from the DM&quot; or something.&nbsp; To 5E rolled that back and now player agency is largely in the hands of the DM, if the DM wants to give players brownie points the Dm and ONLY the DM has that power.Fundamentally, the players have no agency (freedom) but can be granted a great deal of agency (liberty).&nbsp; The problem, I think with some of the discussion, as the latest post by [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] suggests is not that there are diverging viewpoints on player agency, I think fundamentally we all are using the same definition, but some people believe that anything under a certain amount of player agency is tantamount to no player agency.And as I think you pointed out, we can't have a healthy discussion like that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 7351616"] I think I wrote about this a while back: while things like Plot Points increase player agency, allowing (as some people call it) "stage setting" by the players, they are at least in 5E, an [I]optional[/I] part of the game and therefore subject to DM approval. Which is sort of the "trick" to player agency, (and always has been, in D&D at least) that D&D provides [I]very little[/I] hard-coded player agency. 4E was probably the strongest on providing player agency and as I recall there was quite a bit of lament over "taking away power from the DM" or something. To 5E rolled that back and now player agency is largely in the hands of the DM, [I]if[/I] the DM wants to give players brownie points the Dm and ONLY the DM has that power. Fundamentally, the players have no agency (freedom) but can be granted a great deal of agency (liberty). The problem, I think with some of the discussion, as the latest post by [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] suggests is [B]not[/B] that there are diverging viewpoints on player agency, I think fundamentally we all are using the same definition, but some people believe that anything under a certain [I]amount[/I] of player agency is tantamount to [B]no[/B] player agency. And as I think you pointed out, we can't have a healthy discussion like that. [/QUOTE]

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