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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 7351889" data-attributes="member: 6785785">It was said in context of a specific example, that of the map that had been brought up throughout the thread. I gave a couple of different examples of the map situation. I’ll share again because it seems I was not clear.Bob the Fighter’s goal is to recover his father’s sword. It was stolen years before, but Bob is unsure by whom or why. So through the course of play, the characters learn that a noble who is suspected of illicit and dark dealings may have a map that indicates where the sword may be. So the PCs are going to the noble’s manor to try and find this map.Now, in a player driven game, the GM would frame this and then ask “what do you do?” Going off of Pemerton’s earlier comments, it seems that the players can indicate that they search the kitchen for the map, and if their Perception or Search roll indicates a success, then the map is found in the kitchen. This just seems boring to me. Which is why I’ve been citing this example as not being particularly useful without context. Now, I’ve added context to it, but perhaps this is far different context than what Pemerton had in mind. And I’m sure that if asked, Pemerton might say that this would not happen because the players in his game are not likely to attempt such an action. They are experienced players and their thoughts are focused on the dramatic impact of the narrative. In which case, the example seems not very useful to describe play.Now, the same example applied to a more GM driven, D&D style game is equally useless. The players are not likely to try and manufacture the map through a search of the kitchen. Instead, they would simply indicate that they search the kitchen, and leave the results of their search up to the GM. So in this case, the GM is not actually denying any agency on the players’ part because none is expected in this manner wen playibg this type of game. This goes back to Ovinomancer’s chess move in a checkers game analogy.So my question is if players can author elements to the game, what is to stop them from manufacturing their goals in an undramatic and unsatisfying way? Is it the GM’s framing? If so, then what is the difference between that and a GM relying on his notes? If they both prevent the players from concocting a simple solution to their problem, then are they really all that different? Or is it principled play by the players? Where the agency exists for them to add elements to the game, but they limit themselves to only the elements that add dramatic weight?</blockquote>

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