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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7352098" data-attributes="member: 82106">OK, so this is a general type of question about the technique of 'scene framing' and how you generate an interesting narrative using a player-driven approach. First of all, I'd say that the players are assumed to have SOME interest in an interesting narrative. If they don't, why are they playing? To expostulate a bit on this and how this fits into D&D as a game, in the beginning Arnesonian play involved a GM putting players through a 'skill test gauntlet' and there was a fundamental opposition. The player's goal was to amass treasure and gain XP to go up in levels. Clearly the GM had to act as a foil to this, to an extent. Consider the much-maligned 'Monty Haul Dungeon' where the GM just gives away the store. But this isn't material to a narrative fiction where character development and the story itself are primary goals! This is why 2e is incoherent. It has the structure of OD&D, the opposed DM and players and the mechanics to go with that, and an avowed agenda of story-telling which doesn't fit with that. So, what do we actually have to fear? If the players simply give themselves the whole store, then its their own fault if the game is boring and pointless! What the exact balance is and how the relationship between GM and players works can be structured in numerous ways. I could run, say, 4e D&D as pretty much classic D&D, and I can run it with the players dicing to add elements to the story, like Vinny the Weasel, or I could even just let them insert stuff any way they want whenever they want, though some people will prefer specific structures (@Pemerton sticks strictly to the Czege Principle as he calls it, maybe [MENTION=99817]chaochou[/MENTION] doesn't). Personally, I think its fun if the players set the general agenda based on their character backstory and build choices, and then indicate the direction to go in by introducing elements to play which are plausible and connect with their action declarations. This is one reason I added the 'Inspiration' mechanic to HoML, it provides a specifically measured element of player manipulation of the plot which is mechanically constrained. I find this is easier for a lot of players to handle than simply "do anything you want with the story" as it keeps them more focused on doing relevant things (my version of this requires that the player relate any narrative element they produce to an existing character trait, and if they wish to exercise this option more than once per session they have to generate some kind of narrative element that is related to the character but contrary to their interests in order to regain Inspiration). I find this rule works pretty well, and its rather similar to how things like FATE and (I suppose) BW and Cortex+ work in some degree.</blockquote>

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