Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7352111" data-attributes="member: 82106">I think this misses the entire point of the whole thread from the start. Nobody argued that GM-centered play, and any attendant world building, couldn't be 'principled'. The assertion is that it HAS A DIFFERENT AGENDA. There are different characteristics inherent to these techniques. In a GM-centered play system it is axiomatic that the focus is in terms of what the GM is presenting. In a player-centric game it is axiomatic that the focus is on the agenda brought to the table by the players. This is a qualitative difference that is not related to how well each GM sticks to his principles. If such a qualitative difference does not exist, then what are we discussing here?It seems to me that the controversial point, to some of you, is the assertion by [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] et al that, to the extent that a game addresses player concerns, it becomes a player-driven game. I think there are finer points that can be discussed, but this too seems kind of self evident. The counter assertion seems to be that as long as the CHARACTERS are fictionally not depicted as being forced to do something, and their choices appear meaningful from character stance, that the players have agency. This seems to be IMHO incoherent, if the players choices of moves cannot produce fiction of the player's choosing, then they're really only choosing between the GM's options, and they are dependent on the GM to address their agenda, entirely. I think its reasonable to ask your question "given that player's power is not unlimited, to what extent is the game still dependent on the GM for the agenda?" and this is a GOOD question! In some systems, like Cortex+ and BW there are actual rules that stipulate that the GM only has a specific amount of power over the fiction, so clearly if you play a game like that then the answer must be "there's a balance of power between them and they share it." In D&D, with its 'rule 0' type of structure, that isn't the case from pure mechanics, the GM could just steamroller everyone in mechanical terms, even if that GM is [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]. So, yes, it requires principled play by a GM in D&D, NO MATTER WHAT way you play it! That's just a characteristic of D&D! It isn't a characteristic of Cortex+...</blockquote>

Verification