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Message: <blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 7354056" data-attributes="member: 85870">Another idea that I have had to come to grips with in this thread as well---is there a difference between "secret backstory" that negates player agency, and "scene frame maneuvering"? In other words, are there things happening in the background relevant to the player's current concerns and framing of the challenge which the PCs would not logically be aware of, but which could increase/decrease the possibility of success for the PCs?Example: If you've framed the PCs into a scene where they need to go hunt down an otyugh in the city underground, it's not "secret backstory" for the current location of the otyugh to be unknown---that's part of the framing of the challenge. Or is it? Depending on the rationale for play, I could easily see this going both ways. If part of the challenge is to successfully navigate the sewers, putting the party's resources at stake, keeping the location "hidden" might be part of the challenge frame. But if a player declares, "I talk to several city sanitation workers and town guards to discover the last known points of activity for the otyugh," as a GM, I'd be hard pressed to negate that player declaration if the fortune mechanic indicated a success. Example 2: A scene where you've framed the PCs into a challenge where they need to convince a local magistrate to divulge the location of a prisoner being held at a secret location. Let's say as GM, you've created a backstory for the magistrate that he's actually under a lot of pressure because of some gambling debts he needs to pay off, and if the PCs could take care of the bookie that's owed money, the magistrate will be willing to help them.Is this considered secret backstory? Even if the PCs could discover that information through any number of strongly telegraphed means (various streetwise and information gathering checks). How and when does this cross over from "scene framing" to "secret backstory"? Is it still "secret" if the GM has provided ample means for discovery? Is setting up a "hidden" victory condition at all like this a bad idea? If this were the ONLY method to success for the challenge, I think that would obviously be a bad idea. There would always be other avenues for the PCs to find the location of the prisoner---capture / interrogate the magistrate, steal government dispatches that indicate the location of the prison, hunt down a former prisoner who would know where it is---but for this particular challenge frame, the PCs' probability of success would be exponentially easier if they "discover" the "backstory" and bring it to bear against the magistrate.  Or is this something that should be left totally "open"? For example, should that backstory not exist at all until a player authors it? Something like, "I'm going to do some investigation around this magistrate, because I'm sure there's something shady about him I can use to pressure him---maybe, like, he's incurred some gambling debts." And then on a success, the player authored backstory is now true?Or is this something that should be implicitly built into the scene frame by the GM? "Okay, so you need to find this prisoner because he has valuable information about [Goal X the Party Really Wants to Accomplish]. From your past success, you've been told that Magistrate Jones knows where the prison is, but you'll need to convince him to give that information to you. Some cursory "street investigation" into Magistrate Jones reveals that there may be a way for you to put the screws to him and get what you need."There's some definite grey area here for me, but perhaps its the principle behind it---even if I as GM have "pre-authored" elements of a scene frame, those shouldn't be the only possibilities embedded into the frame, and I as GM should be open to improvising/updating/modifying elements based on PC action declaration and intent.</blockquote>

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