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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7354590" data-attributes="member: 82106">I feel like the real core of this is that you don't want to even discuss [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s concept of player agency. That concept is a very basic agency concept that says &quot;you have agency when you have power to control something&quot; in essence. So, when a poster says &quot;the players moved their characters to point X and I told them they found Y, and they said 'we search' and nothing was found because that's what the map key said was there, nothing.&quot; (I know, I'm stripping the narrative down to a very dry level, but I'm not doing so to attack the technique, but just to easily illustrate the elements of it) then where is the player agency by [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s measure? I don't see how, in a game where all the content is as established as the real world is, and just as immutable, that the players have any agency over that. I my example they simply don't. You can say that they could have gone to room Z instead of X, and then found something when they searched. OK, but that's missing the point, the players still didn't decide what the narrative was going to include or be about, at all!So, when you instead assert your theory, that the PCs having a choice in-game is agency (although I am personally not understanding what is being controlled by fictional people) then Pemerton saying &quot;its just like a choose-your-own-adventure novel&quot; is bound to piss you off, because you think that someone is wrong AND critical, but its not wrong, you just have to be able to discuss things in terms that other people accept sometimes. We can have a discussion about YOUR definition of 'agency' (actually we did, and I'm sorry to say I wasn't really convinced it is very useful, but I'd be the last person to tell anyone to shut up, you can champion that view as much as you want). In other words, put yourself in the position of the person you're arguing with and see if maybe their viewpoint actually makes some sense, and isn't as antagonistic as you think.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7354590, member: 82106"] I feel like the real core of this is that you don't want to even discuss [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s concept of player agency. That concept is a very basic agency concept that says "you have agency when you have power to control something" in essence. So, when a poster says "the players moved their characters to point X and I told them they found Y, and they said 'we search' and nothing was found because that's what the map key said was there, nothing." (I know, I'm stripping the narrative down to a very dry level, but I'm not doing so to attack the technique, but just to easily illustrate the elements of it) then where is the player agency by [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]'s measure? I don't see how, in a game where all the content is as established as the real world is, and just as immutable, that the players have any agency over that. I my example they simply don't. You can say that they could have gone to room Z instead of X, and then found something when they searched. OK, but that's missing the point, the players still didn't decide what the narrative was going to include or be about, at all! So, when you instead assert your theory, that the PCs having a choice in-game is agency (although I am personally not understanding what is being controlled by fictional people) then Pemerton saying "its just like a choose-your-own-adventure novel" is bound to piss you off, because you think that someone is wrong AND critical, but its not wrong, you just have to be able to discuss things in terms that other people accept sometimes. We can have a discussion about YOUR definition of 'agency' (actually we did, and I'm sorry to say I wasn't really convinced it is very useful, but I'd be the last person to tell anyone to shut up, you can champion that view as much as you want). In other words, put yourself in the position of the person you're arguing with and see if maybe their viewpoint actually makes some sense, and isn't as antagonistic as you think. [/QUOTE]

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