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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7375979">No, because they're not setting the specific challenges they have to overcome, they're only saying that &quot;there are challenges&quot;.&nbsp; When a player (or an IRL person) sets a goal they're always setting the problem (my boss is a jerk) and defining the solution (getting a sweet new job).&nbsp; What they don't get to set is the challenges between point A and C.&nbsp; If a player has to investigate every Interesting Item to see if there's a connection, then they're clearly not violating Czege.&nbsp; All they know is that they need to figure out how to get from A to C, but they don't know what B will look like.&nbsp; Point 5 is unnecessary, the resolution was specified in point 1.&nbsp; &quot;Free my Brother from the Balrog.&quot;&nbsp; The challenge is unspecified, &quot;How do I free Brother?&quot;The violation occurs when the player specifies challenge and resolution.&nbsp; The violation is particularly egregious when the challenge is unsatisfactory to the resolution.&nbsp; IE: Freeing my Brother from the Balrog means I have to eat nothing but kale for 5 days.&nbsp; Few people will complain about a Czege violation that presents a satisfactory challenge to achieve the resolution, IE: Freeing my Brother from the Balrog means I have to defeat the powerful high-level sorcerer who summoned the Balrog's spirit into my Brother.&nbsp; We now have a challenge that actually is well, challenging for the player.It's unrealistic to say that the player determining the challenge and the solution is always a violation, or worse that it is always un-fun.The risk a violation runs is essentially the player excluding others from participating or creating a situation that is boring.&nbsp; The Czege Principle basically assumes (rightly or wrongly) that most people suck at writing and creating challenges for themselves.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 7375979"] No, because they're not setting the specific challenges they have to overcome, they're only saying that "there are challenges". When a player (or an IRL person) sets a goal they're always setting the problem (my boss is a jerk) and defining the solution (getting a sweet new job). What they don't get to set is the challenges between point A and C. If a player has to investigate every Interesting Item to see if there's a connection, then they're clearly [I]not[/I] violating Czege. All they know is that they need to figure out how to get from A to C, but they don't know what B will look like. Point 5 is unnecessary, the resolution was specified in point 1. "Free my Brother from the Balrog." The [I]challenge[/I] is unspecified, "How do I free Brother?" The violation occurs when the player specifies challenge [I]and[/I] resolution. The violation is particularly egregious when the challenge is unsatisfactory to the resolution. IE: Freeing my Brother from the Balrog means I have to eat nothing but kale for 5 days. Few people will complain about a Czege violation that presents a satisfactory challenge to achieve the resolution, IE: Freeing my Brother from the Balrog means I have to defeat the powerful high-level sorcerer who summoned the Balrog's spirit into my Brother. We now have a challenge that actually is well, [I]challenging[/I] for the player. It's unrealistic to say that the player determining the challenge and the solution is [I]always[/I] a violation, or worse that it is always un-fun. The risk a violation runs is essentially the player excluding others from participating or creating a situation that is boring. The Czege Principle basically assumes (rightly or wrongly) that most people suck at writing and creating challenges for themselves. [/QUOTE]

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