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<blockquote data-quote="tomBitonti" data-source="post: 7376706" data-attributes="member: 13107">Additional text omitted.As far as I understand the systems, I thought player agency meant that they very definitely do find a secret passage, with the understanding that the DM will place obstacles to findings and using the passage.&nbsp; Or rather, that the passage does exist, albeit with obstacles that must be overcome standing between the player and the passage.Then, the player agency is in declaring that what matters to them is finding the secret passage.&nbsp; (The player may have a larger goal: Traversing the passage to visit the Yuan-Ti lands.&nbsp; Traversing the passage to learn mystic arts from a Yuan-Ti Sorcerer.&nbsp; Traversing the passage to learn mystic arts to create a new shadow cabal and take over the city underworld.&nbsp; One expects that what matters to the player will both shift and be embellished by the player.)In a GM driven game, the GM will have already decided whether any secret passage as desired by the player exists, and whether the play can find it.I thought this was the crux of the difference between player driven and GM driven: With player driven, the plot is presented by the player, then modified in a collaborative fashion with the GM and other players.&nbsp; With GM driven, a plot is present to players, who accept that they will allow the in-plot goals to become their player goals.&nbsp; (An alternative to GM driven is a sandbox, where major plot elements are present, and the players pursue those which are of interest.)In GM driven play, there will be a point outside of the game where the players and GM agree on the &quot;meta&quot;.&nbsp; Say:GM: Hey, interested in running through Against the Giants the next few months?&nbsp; You'll be playing adventurers sent by the local Baron to find and stop giants who have recently begun raiding the countryside.Players: Hmm, can we do the Drow stuff instead?But even in Player driven play, there are some decisions made in the meta: What game system to use.&nbsp; What particular rules are allowed.&nbsp; The power level of the characters.&nbsp; How many characters each player controls.Thx!TomB(I pretty sure I've written something similar a while ago.&nbsp; Odd feeling, that.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tomBitonti, post: 7376706, member: 13107"] Additional text omitted. As far as I understand the systems, I thought player agency meant that they very definitely [b]do[/b] find a secret passage, with the understanding that the DM will place obstacles to findings and using the passage. Or rather, that the passage does exist, albeit with obstacles that must be overcome standing between the player and the passage. Then, the player agency is in declaring that what matters to them is finding the secret passage. (The player may have a larger goal: Traversing the passage to visit the Yuan-Ti lands. Traversing the passage to learn mystic arts from a Yuan-Ti Sorcerer. Traversing the passage to learn mystic arts to create a new shadow cabal and take over the city underworld. One expects that what matters to the player will both shift and be embellished by the player.) In a GM driven game, the GM will have already decided whether any secret passage as desired by the player exists, and whether the play can find it. I thought this was the crux of the difference between player driven and GM driven: With player driven, the plot is presented by the player, then modified in a collaborative fashion with the GM and other players. With GM driven, a plot is present to players, who accept that they will allow the in-plot goals to become their player goals. (An alternative to GM driven is a sandbox, where major plot elements are present, and the players pursue those which are of interest.) In GM driven play, there will be a point outside of the game where the players and GM agree on the "meta". Say: GM: Hey, interested in running through Against the Giants the next few months? You'll be playing adventurers sent by the local Baron to find and stop giants who have recently begun raiding the countryside. Players: Hmm, can we do the Drow stuff instead? But even in Player driven play, there are some decisions made in the meta: What game system to use. What particular rules are allowed. The power level of the characters. How many characters each player controls. Thx! TomB (I pretty sure I've written something similar a while ago. Odd feeling, that.) [/QUOTE]

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