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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7376833" data-attributes="member: 6778044">But even in a system with this definition of "player agency" they don't always find the secret passage. Even if the player is the one declaring the fiction at that point in time, the dice can indicate failure, although most of them espouse the type of "fail forward" of success with complications. But if the circumstances and dice align, then the result could very well be one of failure, and in other discussions, proponents of these systems have indicated that actual failure is possible.Regardless, my point isn't whether the passage is found or not. It's how the game determines if the passage is found (or even there). The GM vs Player driven game is another confusing mess. To some folks, it's a game where the DM doesn't add anything during the course of play. They use a published adventure or the DM preps it ahead of time (and can even show his notes if there's a dispute), and any modifications the DM makes in the course of the game is taking away their player agency. But the players don't add to the fiction of the world, just take actions as their characters. That's not the type of GM driven game you're referring to, though. What you're referring to is more a question of how much input the players have into the fiction of the world. In many Story Now games they have a fair amount of it, although Eero's essay advised against them having control of the fiction during the course of play. In D&D I think that there's always an aspect of players adding to the fiction outside of their characters, although it's usually more indirectly. Through backstory and if the DM works their ideas into the game. That's what I do, although they also have more direct input at times as well. For example, during the course of play, when we are in town (their home town) then I ask for their input as to what they know. For example, when meeting an NPC from town, they fill in what they know about that NPC, what their relationship is, etc. In general, regarding lore about the region, etc. we handle things similarly.Really, I see it more as a continuum, of how much input into the fiction outside of the characters the players have, and how much input/veto the DM has with regards to that input. Most of my players don't want any input into the fiction beyond their characters and their decisions and actions. They are looking to me to fill in what's going on in the world around them. I tend to have some notes for ideas, but most things aren't finalized until they enter play, and may be the opposite, or even completely different from what I have. Of course, a significant portion isn't prepped at all, since I really don't know what the players are going to do. A lot of the plot hooks are based directly on what the players have said along the way.lSo in a "GM driven game" I don't think that the existence of the passage is always a foregone conclusion, although it could be. In some games it may always be. Instead, I see it more as a matter of responsibility. Who is responsible for determining if the passage exists or not? In D&D it's usually the DM, sometimes with the use of dice. In a Story Now approach, the dice can be an influence, and the responsibility lies with whoever's move it is, with potential complications introduced by the GM.</blockquote>

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