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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7378481" data-attributes="member: 82106">Dear [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] Does the education system in your country teach logic? I'm afraid it is a lost subject in mine, for which I humbly apologize! <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/worried.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":-S" title="Uhm    :-S" data-shortname=":-S" />What your saying is basically equivalent to "My Honda Civic has just as much horsepower as your Mercedes S Class, because we measure it numbers of hondapowers and in that system the two come out the same, so they're identically powerful." This argument is ridiculous to state it bluntly. If you were to have made it in a college-level logic class you'd have been roundly roasted for it. Two things which are not equivalent do not become equivalent simply because you refuse to measure them in a way that actually measures they way that they are qualitatively different. Not only that, but the other argument here "you never had X, therefor if I don't give you any of X than you can't possibly be lacking X!" is frankly worthless and doesn't fly at all.We are not assessing anything by any 'lens', we are measuring OBJECTIVELY how much actual control the players have over the actual narrative in actual games of different types. The fact of control over the narrative is independent of the type of game, I can easily define it and measure it in a way that references nothing more than the essential facts of RPG play (that there are characters played by the players and a narrative that they participate in). There is absolutely no point in belaboring this anymore. For whatever reason you guys seem to perceive that imputing a difference in agency to the style of play you favor that is different from that of another style is something you cannot countenance and that must be denied even by the most arcane twists of illogic. The fact that walking down this path leads to such absurd positions as "more choice by the players is actually railroading by the GM" only EMPHASIZE the magnitude of the discord between your position and reason. I really honestly don't think any type of play is better or worse in any objective way than another, and I have both GMed and played in games of all descriptions for decades. I also agree that there is a continuum between DM and player driven games. I don't disagree that players have choices of certain types in all games. But the notion that a Story Now game somehow has no extra dimension of freedom to act (agency) simply doesn't stand up to examination. I don't even see why you make this argument, but I feel like it isn't really a worthwhile discussion anymore, and maybe we should move on to some other aspect of the thread?</blockquote>

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