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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7385581" data-attributes="member: 42582">The GM said &quot;Your're heading off, right?&quot; and - after the players replied &quot;yes&quot; - described them travelling through the Underdark. That was when the players knew they were approaching the giants, and that was the players' chance to say they wanted to be sneaky, if they wanted to be. In my exmample the players didn't say any such thing. From which we can infer that the didn't care to be sneaky.(And how do you know they had no knowledge of the giants' territory? Where did I say that? Where did [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] say that? Maybe the dwarves told them all about it - again, you're just making stuff up.)There's no need to guess what the GM will do! The GM asked &quot;Are you going to the giants&quot;, and they said &quot;yes&quot;, so that's what is happening. A clever 3 year old could manage that guess!And that's their informed decision - knowing that they have promised the dwaves to help with the giants, they go off to keep their promise?And as I already asked - what makes you think they knew they were getting close to the giants' territory before they saw the cave? Why would there be signs of patrols? Everything you say here is framed in terms of a GM-driven railroad: the GM is railroading the players into a confrontation with the giants, but &quot;telegraphs&quot; by narrating signs of patrols, and other contrived evidence of &quot;giant territory&quot;, so that the players can make &quot;skilled play&quot; choices that will optimise their chances in the forthcoming, GM-arranged confrontation with the giants.But that is not the example the [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] gave and I offered some elaboration of. That was an example of player-driven play. If the players want to fight giants, they don't need &quot;warning&quot; or &quot;telegraphing&quot; that they're facing giants. That's inherent in them expressing their desire. And - as I've already said many times - if they want to approach stealthily then that's up to them. Maybe they don't want to be!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7385581, member: 42582"] The GM said "Your're heading off, right?" and - after the players replied "yes" - described them travelling through the Underdark. That was when the players knew they were approaching the giants, and [I]that was the players' chance to say they wanted to be sneaky, if they wanted to be[/I]. In my exmample the players didn't say any such thing. From which we can infer that the didn't care to be sneaky. (And how do you know they had no knowledge of the giants' territory? Where did I say that? Where did [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] say that? Maybe the dwarves told them all about it - again, you're just making stuff up.) There's no need to guess what the GM will do! The GM asked "Are you going to the giants", and they said "yes", so that's what is happening. A clever 3 year old could manage that guess! And that's their informed decision - knowing that they have promised the dwaves to help with the giants, they go off to keep their promise? And as I already asked - what makes you think they knew they were getting close to the giants' territory before they saw the cave? Why would there be signs of patrols? Everything you say here is framed in terms of a GM-driven railroad: the GM is railroading the players into a confrontation with the giants, but "telegraphs" by narrating signs of patrols, and other contrived evidence of "giant territory", so that the players can make "skilled play" choices that will optimise their chances in the forthcoming, GM-arranged confrontation with the giants. But that is not the example the [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] gave and I offered some elaboration of. That was an example of player-driven play. If the players want to fight giants, they don't need "warning" or "telegraphing" that they're facing giants. That's inherent in them expressing their desire. And - as I've already said many times - if they want to approach stealthily then that's up to them. Maybe they don't want to be! [/QUOTE]

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