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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7390499" data-attributes="member: 42582">Obviously, you can use words however you want.But I'm explaining why    [MENTION=6778044]Ilbranteloth[/MENTION] is making an error in reading Eero Tuovinen. When Eero Tuovinen refers to "backstory", he is not talking about the outcomes of action resolution.The GM didn't frame the secret door. It's not part of the backstory. It's presence or absence is being established by way of action resolution.Backstory is not being used by Eero Tuovinen (or me) to denote stuff that, in the fiction, existed. It's being used to denote stuff that, at the table, is already established as part of the shared fiction. In the context of a check for a secret door, the backstory - which is part of the framing - might include that there is a stone wall in an ancient castle built by a people well-known for their cunning engineering.This is another case of being misled by not distinguishing stuff that doesn't exist (imaginary walls, imaginary secret doors) from stuff that does exist (events of narration that refer to a PC being near a stone wall of the sort that might have a secret door in it).This doesn't make any sense. Tolkien was not a RPGer. LotR is a novel."Story now" is not an approach to literary composition. It's an approach to RPGing.What I do claim is that "story now" RPGing can produce episodes of play that have the drama, pacing etc one might find in a literary composition without this needing to be written in advance. The traditional way for GM-driven play to do the same thing is extremely heavy railroading (Dragonlance and Dead Gods would be classic examples of this in D&D modules). If the GM is not railroading in that fashion, but nevertheless is exercising strong control over the fiction of the sort that you advocate, then I contend that the prospects of achieving the pacing and drama typical of a literary composition are slight, because much of play will consist in the players making moves to learn what the fiction is (such as your example, upthread, of the players having to make moves so their PCs can find somewhere where an angel feather might be on sale). I took this to be confirmed by you in your remark that you might have to play for many hours to have things happen which - if edited appropriately - might resemble JRRT's Moria sequence.EDIT: I will elaborate on the above by reference to the following:For Pippin's arc to happen in a RPG, here are the necessary things that have to occur:After it is established (presumably via the mechanics), that Boromir, Pippin's protector, dies, it then has to be the case that (i) Pippin meets Denethor, Boromir's father, (ii) in circumstances where it makes sense to swear fealty to him, (iii) in circumstances where that fealty is called upon (eg a war), (iv) in circumstances which also lead Pippin to love the other son, Faramir (eg Faramir's leadership in said war), (v) with Denethor then going mad, such that (vi) fealty and love can come into conflict.Every example that has been posted in this thread of "going where the action is" (to once again borrow Eero Tuovinen's phrase) has been criticised by you: the actual play example of starting things in the bazaar; the imagined example of eliding travel through the Underdark via quick narration and perhaps a brief skill challenge; etc.But to make the Pippin arc happen, the GM repeatedly would have to go where the action is. If the GM never frames Pippin into a meeting with Denethor; does not then establish an attack upon Minas Tirith as an element of framing; has Pippin's presence when Denethor tries to burn Farimir depend upon the outcomes of random rolls (say, a roll to see which soldier Denethor asks to accompany him), then the arc doesn't happen.If the GM does all this and Pippin's player is not interested, then we have a fairly hard railroad. So for the above to work, Pippin's player has to signal some sort of agenda - eg, following Boromir's death, formally (as might happen in Burning Wheel) or informally (as might happen in 4e) signalling that I will repay the debt I owe to this man. Which is the agenda you are denying needs to be enunciated in advance.This is why I am asking for play examples: I want you to show me how you do this without either using "story now"-type methods, or else using heavy GM force.</blockquote>

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