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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7397089" data-attributes="member: 42582">It bears on agency in the following way: if I, playing my PC, would like to discover a secret door here and now, the GM has already decided whether or not that is possible. Hence my agency, as a player, over the fiction concerning my character, is constrained by and mediated through the GM's unrevealed decision.You may be indifferent to that particular burden on this particular way of a player manifesting agency, but it's there.Well, to requote something from <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/narr_essay.html" target="_blank">Ron Edwards</a>, &quot;[t]here cannot be any 'the story' during Narrativist play&quot;. That is, there is no &quot;the adventure&quot;. To quote again from Eero, Story is an outcome of the process as choices lead to consequences which lead to further choices, until all outstanding issues have been resolved and the story naturally reaches an end.In &quot;story now&quot; RPGing, especially pursuant to the standard narrativitic model, the action is not oriented around &quot;the adventure&quot; or &quot;the story&quot;, but is driven by the dramatic needs of the PCs: framing &gt; action declarations &gt; consequences &gt; new framing &gt; further action declarations &gt; further consequences, until the issues have been resolved ie the final consequences don't compel new choices because the PCs (and hence players) are content with how things have ended up.As far as your contrast of &quot;overcoming obstacles&quot; with &quot;a single use of a skill&quot;, I don't understand the contrast. In RPGing, the main way that obstacles are overcome by players is by declaring actions for their PCs. Whether this involves a &quot;skill&quot; depends on the system (it often does in 4e and BW; it never does in HeroWars/Quest or DitV; it sometimes does in Cortex+ Heroic). Whether it involves a single check depends on the system (in 4e or HW/Q it might, depending on whether the GM uses simple or extended resolution; in BW it nearly always will if a search is involved, because BW has extended resolution for fighting, talking and running but not searching; in DitV it never will because all resolution in DitV is &quot;extended&quot;).Again, I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;the game as a whole&quot;, and how you are contrasting it with &quot;the fiction&quot;. But of course RPGing doesn't consist just in &quot;the fiction&quot; - [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] and I made just this point to [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] not far upthread. Central to RPGing is the method whereby the participants in the game generate the fiction.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7397089, member: 42582"] It bears on agency in the following way: if I, playing my PC, would like to discover a secret door here and now, [i]the GM has already decided whether or not that is possible[/i]. Hence my agency, as a player, over the fiction concerning my character, is constrained by and mediated through the GM's unrevealed decision. You may be indifferent to that particular burden on this particular way of a player manifesting agency, but it's there. Well, to requote something from [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/narr_essay.html]Ron Edwards[/url], "[t]here cannot be any '[i]the[/i] story' during Narrativist play". That is, there is no "the adventure". To quote again from Eero, [indent]Story is an outcome of the process as choices lead to consequences which lead to further choices, until all outstanding issues have been resolved and the story naturally reaches an end.[/indent] In "story now" RPGing, especially pursuant to the standard narrativitic model, the action is not oriented around "the adventure" or "the story", but is driven by the dramatic needs of the PCs: framing > action declarations > consequences > new framing > further action declarations > further consequences, until the issues have been resolved ie the final consequences don't compel new choices because the PCs (and hence players) are content with how things have ended up. As far as your contrast of "overcoming obstacles" with "a single use of a skill", I don't understand the contrast. In RPGing, the main way that obstacles are overcome by players is by declaring actions for their PCs. Whether this involves a "skill" depends on the system (it often does in 4e and BW; it never does in HeroWars/Quest or DitV; it sometimes does in Cortex+ Heroic). Whether it involves a single check depends on the system (in 4e or HW/Q it might, depending on whether the GM uses simple or extended resolution; in BW it nearly always will if a search is involved, because BW has extended resolution for fighting, talking and running but not searching; in DitV it never will because all resolution in DitV is "extended"). Again, I'm not sure what you mean by "the game as a whole", and how you are contrasting it with "the fiction". But of course RPGing doesn't consist just in "the fiction" - [MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] and I made just this point to [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] not far upthread. Central to RPGing is the method whereby the participants in the game [i]generate[/i] the fiction. [/QUOTE]

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