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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7404268" data-attributes="member: 6778044">So I see the discussion on railroad/not has continued, but this post in particular had two points I wanted to make:First, in terms of the Story Now approach of searching for a secret door, that the check itself is (at least partially) responsible for determining whether a secret door is found - what consideration is made, and how, that a secret door may not belong there?While we explored this a bit with more absurd examples (the paladin declaring they find a holy sword at the market), why should the secret door be there? What if it shouldn't (logically speaking)?A related thing is the continued (seeming) insistence that with a prepared map or notes that it is impossible for the DM to make changes. This is simply not true. There's no reason why, if a player decided to search for a secret door, that I can't decide that one might be present, and even in that moment make the decision that the dice will decide and allow them to make a check. However, if the circumstance (whether pre-designed like the map I was using, or in the moment) leads me to decide that a secret door just doesn't belong here, then so be it.For example, one group of characters decided, for some odd reason, to leap into a shaft filled with water, the surface of which was some 40' down. The shaft was close-fitted stone blocks covered in plaster. It was in a tomb, and was designed to lead to a false tomb, which had been plundered. The water was present because of a small stream that had since compromised the tomb.The players jumped down without any rope, or any other obvious means of getting back out of the shaft. So why, would a check of any nature, suddenly make a secret door appear to allow them to escape their stupidity? The tomb wasn't designed for an easy way to escape (although this portion wasn't necessarily designed as a trap, although the shaft did have poisoned spikes at the bottom of it).In many cases, the secret door just doesn't make sense.I will also point out, that I've seen a great many threads and articles suggesting that dead ends, and inescapable situations is poor design. I disagree. The world is not always a friendly place, and you can't expect that every circumstance will always have a way to succeed. To me (and us) it's in these seemingly impossible circumstances that some of the most interesting stories and adventures occur. Even if the party eventually succumbed to the elements, lack of resources, etc., and nobody outside of this group of characters ever learned their fate, the exploration of character, of the interactions of the characters, in other words, the role-play of a hopeless situation, was amazingly interesting and cool.--Now, connecting this to the ongoing railroad discussion. Can there be more than one type of railroad? Sure, why not? If you're a player that is as concerned (if not more) about the process of how the adventure is created by the GM, then a dungeon that's drawn ahead of time can be considered a type of railroad. And once again, that goes back to my point about what the design of the game is and agency. If the game is designed (even by consensus by those at the table) to encourage, if not require, the GM to generate the story in the moment, in reaction to the players choices and motivations, with input from the dice, then what is considered a railroad is going to be different. To me, a railroad has nothing to do with the setting or the dungeon. A railroad (or not) has to do with the story or plot. Do the players have control of their characters decisions and actions, or the DM? A dungeon, a map, or whatever, can be used to facilitate a railroad. But a linear map does not in and of itself make an adventure or a campaign a railroad. Just like who decides whether a secret door is present or not (and when they decide it), you can't determine what is cool, or what is a railroad by a single point in time. For example, not finding a secret door is just a thing. A point in time. Not finding a secret door when you are running from a dozen guards is different. A railroad also doesn't need to be preplanned. If the DM is determining the outcome of all of the decisions the characters can make, and the direction the plot heads, then it's a railroad, or at least headed that way.Note that deciding a secret door is there or not (whether before the session or during) is not a railroad. Any more than deciding there are a half-dozen orcs in this room, or the placement of any other challenge, setback, etc. It sets the framework around which the PCs make their choices. "OK, I'm not surprised that there's not a secret door here, but it certainly would have been nice. What now?"The group trapped at the bottom of the shaft were there because of their own decisions. Indeed, there were several fallen adventurers under the water, their corpses carrying many things that might be of value, including an old grappling hook. Unfortunately, after decades of being submerged, the rope had long since decayed. It never occurred to me that an entire party would choose to jump into a shaft without bringing a rope with them. And they were the ones that insisted that they had not, when I gave them the option to assume they had prepared better, and decided they needed to grab one of the ropes they had already used up to that point and left in place.</blockquote>

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