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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7407366" data-attributes="member: 29398">Except we've been dicussing nothing but means all the way along here - why change now? An example of what?  Characters can die in 4e, or so I gather - though it's harder to do so than in some earlier editions.I certainly would.  Traditional play has always been mostly about the story of the party - what does the party do as a whole - with the characters' achievements and stories a bit secondary, though not forgotten or overlooked.  The sense I get from the story-now types is that play there is all about the individual character stories, with the party-as-a-whole's achievements seen as secondary.  It's a big difference in style and focus: team first or individual first.A game system where the PCs start out as heroes (e.g. 4e) as opposed to nobodies (e.g. Basic or 1e) is going to foster a completely different approach to play right from square one.  The nobodies are far more likely going to worry about survival, and thus be in us-or-them "war" mode; where the pre-made heroes can treat the same hazards more like sport.Again I repeat: I'm looking beyond just combat!  Game-as-war vs. game-as-sport.  Combat is just one element of it.Oh, by no means have I hit all the axes. I was more looking at axes that played into whether a game would by design trend more towards war or more towards sport.It's impossible to be an advocate for the PCs at the same time you're trying to thwart them or kill them off (within the reasonable confines of the game system); and any who claim otherwise are not being legitimate with at least one side of that claim.If you truly are an advocate for the PCs then your ability and desire to thwart or harm or kill them is compromised by default, and thus in a sense you are "letting them win".OK, but those goals are still different from those of the DM, who while also wanting to enjoy the game has to put herself in the position of having her goal be to more or less oppose the achievement of the players' in-game goals.Though you're using fancy words for it, I think we might now be on the same page: there's chances now and then for the in-character party to chart their own course and make their own decisions as per what they do next e.g. do we follow up on the balrog possession or do we try to save Dumystor's family farm...or do we just screw it all and head for the coast. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Ah.Lan-"off now to dive into some Gygaxian dungeoneering"-efan</blockquote>

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