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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7408609" data-attributes="member: 48965">You're addressing the specific example and not the general point.&nbsp; Irregardless of why the DM would/could manipulate the DC's... It is still a limiter on player agency because determining the DC is DM whim.&nbsp; Even if you tell the PC's what the DC is it still is determined (and thus their chance of success) by you.&nbsp; Like I said earlier DW is an example of a game where this is truly mitigated but in 4e that's not the case.&nbsp; In the same way secret backstory can limit the agency of players so can subjective DC's.&nbsp; It doesn't have to be a purposeful manipulation... Unless you are being transparent with how you come to choose your DC's, your players are unaware of the conscious and subconscious biases that lead to choosing one DC vs. another.&nbsp; That is a limiter on agency and is an unknown in the same way that secret backstory is unknown.Wait what?&nbsp; Unless the players can now frame their own adversaries, which I haven't seen an example of so far how is this remotely true?&nbsp; [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has chosen the adversaries that his players have faced in the &quot;story&quot;&nbsp; as far as I can tell and a red dragon could easily be framed as opposition to numerous goals.&nbsp; This isn't really making any sense. unless you are now saying that nothing is allowed to be created without the players &quot;ok&quot; in Stoiry Now gaming... is that the case?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 7408609, member: 48965"] You're addressing the specific example and not the general point. Irregardless of why the DM would/could manipulate the DC's... It is still a limiter on player agency because determining the DC is DM whim. Even if you tell the PC's what the DC is it still is determined (and thus their chance of success) by you. Like I said earlier DW is an example of a game where this is truly mitigated but in 4e that's not the case. In the same way secret backstory can limit the agency of players so can subjective DC's. It doesn't have to be a purposeful manipulation... Unless you are being transparent with how you come to choose your DC's, your players are unaware of the conscious and subconscious biases that lead to choosing one DC vs. another. That is a limiter on agency and is an unknown in the same way that secret backstory is unknown. Wait what? Unless the players can now frame their own adversaries, which I haven't seen an example of so far how is this remotely true? [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has chosen the adversaries that his players have faced in the "story" as far as I can tell and a red dragon could easily be framed as opposition to numerous goals. This isn't really making any sense. unless you are now saying that nothing is allowed to be created without the players "ok" in Stoiry Now gaming... is that the case? [/QUOTE]

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