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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7420808" data-attributes="member: 996">By 5th, even in AD&amp;D you were almost uniquivocally in the sweet spot, in which most characters were able to contribute and have some fun.&nbsp; IMHO, it started at 3rd (2nd level spells were a landmark for both clerics - no Cure...Wounds at 2nd, you can actually use your own spells for your own purposes! XOMG! - and magic-users - you got quite meaningful combat spells like Web, and quite meaningful utility spells like Invisibility, and systematically exploitable ones like Continual Light), and, yeah, might end by 7th or 9th or 12th, depending on how you feel about the various break-points various classes hit...&nbsp;... outside the sweet spot, that idea is, the classes that languish on one side do well on the other, yes.&nbsp; In AD&amp;D, fighters &amp; non-/demi-humans do particularly well on the low-level side of the sweet spot, magic-user and humans shine brighter on the other side.&nbsp; It theoretically balanced out if you were playing the whole campaign in each moment (picking a race &amp; class taking into account what the character might be like past name level, for instance), and if the DM delivered on those expectations (as opposed to, oh, hey, the 2e DMG just came out, and that elf wizard that was going to be limited to 11th can now make it to 18th!).&nbsp; Similarly, 5e is balanced over a 'day' (or two, if we worry about HD), of 6-8 encounters &amp; 2-3 short rests - if you play the whole day in each moment of that day, and if the DM delivers that kind of day and that perfect mix of challenges consistently enough.OTOH, I'm not so sure the Thief ever did much shining at any level - except when he tried to Hide in Shadows, of course.&nbsp; ;P&nbsp;Yes.&nbsp;It was<s>, like,</s> the 7th ed of GW, but, no, not much in the lingering-consequences department.&nbsp; If you used ammo in an encounter or your omega tech burned out you didn't have it until you found some more. That was about it.&nbsp; Alpha Mutations were encounter powers that randomly changed on you.&nbsp; Hps re-set between encounters (no surges or anything required).&nbsp; Powers from your Origins were either at-will or encounter.&nbsp;They're similar in kind, in that they both aim to limit balance to only a sub-set of the potential range of play.&nbsp; Balanced at X amount challenge in Y unit of time is simply imbalanced everywhere else.&nbsp;&nbsp; The whole idea your or ovinomancer or whoever posited of a 'unit of balance' is a little off that way, I think.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7420808, member: 996"] By 5th, even in AD&D you were almost uniquivocally in the sweet spot, in which most characters were able to contribute and have some fun. IMHO, it started at 3rd (2nd level spells were a landmark for both clerics - no Cure...Wounds at 2nd, you can actually use your own spells for your own purposes! XOMG! - and magic-users - you got quite meaningful combat spells like Web, and quite meaningful utility spells like Invisibility, and systematically exploitable ones like Continual Light), and, yeah, might end by 7th or 9th or 12th, depending on how you feel about the various break-points various classes hit... ... outside the sweet spot, that idea is, the classes that languish on one side do well on the other, yes. In AD&D, fighters & non-/demi-humans do particularly well on the low-level side of the sweet spot, magic-user and humans shine brighter on the other side. It theoretically balanced out if you were playing the whole campaign in each moment (picking a race & class taking into account what the character might be like past name level, for instance), and if the DM delivered on those expectations (as opposed to, oh, hey, the 2e DMG just came out, and that elf wizard that was going to be limited to 11th can now make it to 18th!). Similarly, 5e is balanced over a 'day' (or two, if we worry about HD), of 6-8 encounters & 2-3 short rests - if you play the whole day in each moment of that day, and if the DM delivers that kind of day and that perfect mix of challenges consistently enough. OTOH, I'm not so sure the Thief ever did much shining at any level - except when he tried to Hide in Shadows, of course. ;P Yes. It was[s], like,[/s] the 7th ed of GW, but, no, not much in the lingering-consequences department. If you used ammo in an encounter or your omega tech burned out you didn't have it until you found some more. That was about it. Alpha Mutations were encounter powers that randomly changed on you. Hps re-set between encounters (no surges or anything required). Powers from your Origins were either at-will or encounter. They're similar in kind, in that they both aim to limit balance to only a sub-set of the potential range of play. Balanced at X amount challenge in Y unit of time is simply [i]imbalanced everywhere else[/i]. The whole idea your or ovinomancer or whoever posited of a 'unit of balance' is a little off that way, I think. [/QUOTE]

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