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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7447657" data-attributes="member: 42582">[MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION], if you really think that skills in 3E/PF are capable of carrying the same heft in play as they do in Classic Traveller (where they are the whole of the PC sheet) then I guess there's no arguing it with you!To me it seems obvious that, in 3E/PF, the main way of resolving out-of-combat challenges is not the skill system but the magic system, with the skill system acting as something of a secondary framework. This is why I made the point that an INT 2 bruiser was also the one who was able to save the data: in Traveller it is quite feasible to have a INT 2 ex-nayy guy like this one who, as a result of the lifepath rolls, happens to have Computer-2 (in the backstory: he was passably competent in the Engineering section, but when transferred to bridge duties his limitatins became clear and he was mustered out). In D&D that role would be played by a spell-user, or (perhaps) a thief, but not by a fighter or barbarian.I'm not very familiar with D20 modern, but my understanding is that it is based on "talent trees" that are associated with classes, so (I assume) the real computer skill would be associated with a Smart Hero, not a Strong one. Turning from the range of PC expertise to other aspects of system: Traveller checks are rolled on 2d6 (occasionally 3d6), which means that even when skill is acting as a 1:1 bonus it behaves quite differently from d20, with skill levels above 1 generating rather reliable degrees of competence. For some checks (eg basic vacc suit checks) the ratio is better than 1:1 (eg in the vacc suit case it is +4 per rank) which further affects the probailities on chekcs. Of course you could calculate all this and replicate it on d20, but (i) I don't think it's guaranteed that the maths will work out (I haven't checked, but it's not obvious that there is a way of parsing d20 skill bonuses that will mean that you can get the same chance of success on a basic vacc suit check and a subsequent vacc suit saving roll, which in Traveller are at +4 per rank and +1 per rank respectively) and (ii) this would require a type of approach to determining skill bonuses and setting DCs which is (as far as I know) not part of any actual d20 system.4e skill challenges use a range of devices to help "flatten" the variability of the maths - mutiple checks, use of rituals and action points and powers and "advantages" (per the Rules Compendium) - but these (i) tend to drift expertise back to a class orientation, and (ii) give the game its own feel which I will testify from experience is not very closee to Classic Traveller.</blockquote>

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