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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7449249" data-attributes="member: 82106">2e's version is the MOST generous in terms of chances of success, but its still not THAT good, as the average stat is still a 13 or 14, which gives you somewhere as low as a 50/50 success rate, depending on the exact NWP (and lord knows what the logic for the check modifiers is, except most things that would be really useful in a tight situation are -2). Yes, you can, in 2e, sometimes have a certain NWP that has 95% success (20 always fails) if you have a VERY high stat. All of the earlier versions are MUCH less generous, the OA implementation is a flat DC that is often 17 or higher to succeed!!! 'Padding with a few levels' is not really an option for most PCs, particularly as the better NWPs all take 2 slots (and thus 2 per added +1 as well, ouch). I think it is clear that by 2e the designers were starting to think maybe the rest of the industry was onto something, but it doesn't seem like they REALLY thought much of the idea. They clearly are biased against any real good coming of NWPs. The ones that would be good in a tight spot are double price and have significant penalties on them. It really is like they don't want you to get anything like an advantage of any sort out of NWPs. This is part of a sort of relict Gygaxian mentality that permeates 2e. The players are a sort of 'enemy team' that shouldn't be granted much leeway. I have a PDF, and haven't gotten out my hardbacks in a few years. So I don't remember for sure if the PHB had Secondary Skills in it when it came out or not, but the later versions probably did, as the PDF text seems to be taken from them. I guess I'm not sure in what sense the 2e NWPs are 'better'. I actually LIKE the way DCs scale with the level of the task. It provides the GM with a whole extra dimension, higher level skill-based challenges! The mere whippersnapper level 1 fighter has no hope of climbing the ice cliffs of the mountains of death, but my 20th level guy who stared Orcus in the eye and then stuck his sword through it, he can! 2e has no answer for that, except 'hit them with enough damage to gank anything lesser'. 4e's skill system is even better. Lush even. There's a short list, so no implied incompetence, nor much ambiguity about which skill to use. It just works.</blockquote>

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