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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nyeshet" data-source="post: 3536141" data-attributes="member: 18363">Take a wizard 20 who decides to then take a further 20 levels in fighter. Take a fighter 20 who decides to then take a further 20 levels in wizard. At level 40, are they the same, presuming that all feats, skill points, spells learned, hit points rolled per level, etc are exactly the same?Not in epic material as it currently exists. The fighter 20 / wizard 20 is notably different from the wizard 20 / fighter 20. Having better bab and more attacks is just part of the difference. The saves are also quite different, due to progression changes after 20th level. This is only part of the problem. The creatures sometimes have really odd CR, power differences between the classes becomes significantly different (and odder) after 20th level, epic spell creation is strange (Many pre-epic spells, if re-created with this system, are in fact epic, and that does not even take into account some of odd balancing factors that can raise and lower the DC for casting.), and magic item price differences means that a weird artificial gulf exists between epic and non-epic items. And then there is the fact that several of the feats in the epic handbook - all of which required a minimum of 21th level before they could be taken - were re-released in the PHB2 as non-epic feats (some reduced to requiring only about 10-15th level, as I recall). This suggests that some of the foundation upon which epic design was made was severely out of balance. Don't even get me started on some of the odd skill usages, by DC. I can understand being able to do truly supernatural seeming things at epic levels of skill, but I would expect such usages to at least be considered Su instead of Ex. This isn't even taking into account the low cost for many magic items that enhance skills - even with the odd epic price enhancement. This doesn't even take into account the odd DCs for many skill usages. Super high DCs for epic uses (that should be Su but are Ex ?! ) might be understandable, but high DCs for things that occur in the RW, that should not be epic in the first place? It just seems so random, what they made epic and what DCs they gave some usages . . .Lastly, classes become stagnant at epic levels unless you take an epic PrC, and most of them seem either underpowered (compared to what a few - sometimes very low (relatively speaking, for that level) magic items can produce). Most epic classes merely get "bonus feat" at this or that regular level, with any prior ever advancing trait usually continuing as normal or sometimes at a slightly reduced rate (examples: favored enemies every five levels for rangers, rages per day for barbarians, etc).All in all, the epic material seems fundamentally flaws to many - with good reason. I would wish they would re-hash the entire thing, but I don't see that coming prior to the time they feel it is necessary to release the 4th ed version of the epic rules - likely a year or three after releasing 4th ed, so it won't be anytime soon.</blockquote>

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