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<blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 1451446" data-attributes="member: 10201"><p>In that situation, i recommend borrowing a page from Hero System: until you spend the XP to "buy off" the disad, it's still with you. Kill off your Enemy? Her daughter takes up the banner of hunting you down. Bad Reputation? That's their baseline--they still get worse than the other PCs, assuming equally-bad actions. And so on. </p><p></p><p>But, you raise a good point about the munchkins simply not taking disads--i've never run into it personally, but it makes sense. Only one counter: who cares? If everyone knows up front what the rules are, then everyone is playing the way they want to: the munchkins aren't forced to take disads they really don't want, and the roleplayers get to have all the cool personal quirks, foibles, and flaws that they *do* want. Yes, the characters might not be balanced, but if everyone's having their share of fun, no problem: the munchkins get to be powerful and have fun hacking, and the roleplayers get to be 3-dimensional and have fun interacting. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear--of <strong>course</strong> the PCs, collectively, are the center of the story/game, even if tehy aren't the center of teh world they're in. Even if they're a bunch of nobodies doing nothing (<em>Clerks</em> immediately comes to mind), they'd still be the center of the story/game, by definition. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><em>Edit: Forgot to mention Spycraft as an excellent example of the principle. It has "Backgrounds" which are pretty much all of the classic disads that involve other people (hunted, dark secret, romantic attachment, etc), and each one costs points (skill points, in this case) and earns XP. It works really well, from everything i've heard, and is no more unbalanced than feats, skills, or class abilities in general are. And don't players already compete for the spotlight in hopes of making their investment in character abilities pay off?</em></p><p></p><p>This is precisely what i'm talking about: story importance relative to one another. Isn't that what every RPG is really doing with "game balance" already? Why does it matter if the various classes in D&D are balanced, for example? Precisely so that everybody gets to contribute equally to the game. I contend that that's ultimately what game balance is about. But most games try to balance a proxy (power) rather than the actual concern (spotlight time), and so rely on assumptions of game style and the like, and thus lose balance as soon as those change. </p><p></p><p>Frex, assuming the D&D3.5E core classes are balanced for the intended "adventuring" style of play [if they aren't, ignore that fact for the sake of argument], all you have to do to radically alter, if not "break" the balance is play a campaign set in a civilized royal court, where fighting is never an option, using magic on others in any way is legally restricted and often warded against, and diplomacy and social interactions almost always decide the course of the day. Suddenly, the bard is *way* more powerful than any other class, period, without changing one thing about the abilities of the various classes. and this stems from the fact that fighting ability is a measure of character power, and thus only relevant when fighting prowess is effective. To take the opposite extreme, look at Over the Edge, where everyone has 4 traits with the same ratings (4d, 3d, 3d, flaw). One person could have a trait like "Immortal swordsman" at 4d [think <em>Highlander</em>], while another could have "Cooking-show host" at 4d. The important thing isn't that they are both equally "powerful", it's that they both have a trait of about the same scope, and are equally good at it, and so can potentially contribute to the adventure about equally. It might not matter to the player of the cooking-show host if she gets to contribute in a fight at all, so long as there is a time when her character is the important one to the scene. That's also why the approach to balance used in games like D&D3E falls down when niches aren't protected. It's no fun being the 2nd rogue in the party, because you only need one rogue to disarm the trap, and of course the best character will try first. But it's fine being the 2nd fighter, because more than one person can fight the monster and contribute meaningfully. [Obviously, this can be worked around--traps that require two simultaneous actions on opposite sides of the room to disarm them. But, in general, some niches in D&D are best singly-occupied, while others can easily accomodate multiple characters.] Thus, according to power balancing, being a 2nd-string combatant, plus a 3rd-string healer, plus a 2nd-string spellcaster, plus a 2nd-string skillmonkey, should "add up" to being as good as being the 1st-stringer in any of these. However, as many a bard player has observed, and as spotlight-time balancing would predict, this often isn't the case, and the bard player feels disproportionately left out. Only the fact that the bard is also the "frontline" social monkey saves it--but then only in a campaign where social interactions are significant. In a dungeon crawl, it probably won't cut it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, howabout giving up all BAB and save progression, instead? That's an even better example than the Traits in Unearthed Arcana--thanks for pointing it out.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="woodelf, post: 1451446, member: 10201"] In that situation, i recommend borrowing a page from Hero System: until you spend the XP to "buy off" the disad, it's still with you. Kill off your Enemy? Her daughter takes up the banner of hunting you down. Bad Reputation? That's their baseline--they still get worse than the other PCs, assuming equally-bad actions. And so on. But, you raise a good point about the munchkins simply not taking disads--i've never run into it personally, but it makes sense. Only one counter: who cares? If everyone knows up front what the rules are, then everyone is playing the way they want to: the munchkins aren't forced to take disads they really don't want, and the roleplayers get to have all the cool personal quirks, foibles, and flaws that they *do* want. Yes, the characters might not be balanced, but if everyone's having their share of fun, no problem: the munchkins get to be powerful and have fun hacking, and the roleplayers get to be 3-dimensional and have fun interacting. Sorry, didn't mean to be unclear--of [b]course[/b] the PCs, collectively, are the center of the story/game, even if tehy aren't the center of teh world they're in. Even if they're a bunch of nobodies doing nothing ([i]Clerks[/i] immediately comes to mind), they'd still be the center of the story/game, by definition. [i]Edit: Forgot to mention Spycraft as an excellent example of the principle. It has "Backgrounds" which are pretty much all of the classic disads that involve other people (hunted, dark secret, romantic attachment, etc), and each one costs points (skill points, in this case) and earns XP. It works really well, from everything i've heard, and is no more unbalanced than feats, skills, or class abilities in general are. And don't players already compete for the spotlight in hopes of making their investment in character abilities pay off?[/i] This is precisely what i'm talking about: story importance relative to one another. Isn't that what every RPG is really doing with "game balance" already? Why does it matter if the various classes in D&D are balanced, for example? Precisely so that everybody gets to contribute equally to the game. I contend that that's ultimately what game balance is about. But most games try to balance a proxy (power) rather than the actual concern (spotlight time), and so rely on assumptions of game style and the like, and thus lose balance as soon as those change. Frex, assuming the D&D3.5E core classes are balanced for the intended "adventuring" style of play [if they aren't, ignore that fact for the sake of argument], all you have to do to radically alter, if not "break" the balance is play a campaign set in a civilized royal court, where fighting is never an option, using magic on others in any way is legally restricted and often warded against, and diplomacy and social interactions almost always decide the course of the day. Suddenly, the bard is *way* more powerful than any other class, period, without changing one thing about the abilities of the various classes. and this stems from the fact that fighting ability is a measure of character power, and thus only relevant when fighting prowess is effective. To take the opposite extreme, look at Over the Edge, where everyone has 4 traits with the same ratings (4d, 3d, 3d, flaw). One person could have a trait like "Immortal swordsman" at 4d [think [i]Highlander[/i]], while another could have "Cooking-show host" at 4d. The important thing isn't that they are both equally "powerful", it's that they both have a trait of about the same scope, and are equally good at it, and so can potentially contribute to the adventure about equally. It might not matter to the player of the cooking-show host if she gets to contribute in a fight at all, so long as there is a time when her character is the important one to the scene. That's also why the approach to balance used in games like D&D3E falls down when niches aren't protected. It's no fun being the 2nd rogue in the party, because you only need one rogue to disarm the trap, and of course the best character will try first. But it's fine being the 2nd fighter, because more than one person can fight the monster and contribute meaningfully. [Obviously, this can be worked around--traps that require two simultaneous actions on opposite sides of the room to disarm them. But, in general, some niches in D&D are best singly-occupied, while others can easily accomodate multiple characters.] Thus, according to power balancing, being a 2nd-string combatant, plus a 3rd-string healer, plus a 2nd-string spellcaster, plus a 2nd-string skillmonkey, should "add up" to being as good as being the 1st-stringer in any of these. However, as many a bard player has observed, and as spotlight-time balancing would predict, this often isn't the case, and the bard player feels disproportionately left out. Only the fact that the bard is also the "frontline" social monkey saves it--but then only in a campaign where social interactions are significant. In a dungeon crawl, it probably won't cut it. Yeah, howabout giving up all BAB and save progression, instead? That's an even better example than the Traits in Unearthed Arcana--thanks for pointing it out. [/QUOTE]
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