Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What is your top question/concern about 4th edition?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 3789837" data-attributes="member: 22424"><p>Two things:</p><p></p><p>1) If a new player joins an existing 'old school' group, then the rest of the group can bring him up to speed on the style they use. If a new player joins a new group, surely it doesn't matter whether the game impresses on them the importance of iron spikes - they'll develop their own style natually, and if they're having fun why does it matter?</p><p></p><p>2) I don't get why iron spikes are so essential to having an 'old school' style, and yet you've mentioned them three times? Note that I haven't read the 1st Edition books (I went from BD&D -> 2nd Ed -> 3e), but the DCC and Necromancer modules I've seen don't put undue emphasis on them. Is there something I've missed?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're right. My mistake.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The best of the new modules should do that also. Although I'm inclined to think that the clues should tell you where to check, and maybe a bonus, rather than give automatic success. If the players fail to specify they're checking, the clues should also be obvious in hindsight - a trap generally shouldn't 'come out of nowhere'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But, to put not too fine a point on it: isn't that a valid question? The players aren't supposed to know the contents of the various Monster Manuals (for 'sense of wonder' reasons), so how are they to know there even <em>are</em> such things as ear creepers, lurkers above, and so forth?</p><p></p><p>And so, I would argue that those ranks in Knowledge: Dungeoneering <em>should</em> be used for precisely that: the DM should inform the players in question of some of the likely hazards, with brief synopses, and then let them determine their responses accordingly. And, of course, the completeness of the information should depend on the quality of the roll - perhaps a marginal success only gives incomplete information, or gives a lot of 'false positive' results.</p><p></p><p>And, in fact, that's entirely the intent of the skill: you might know about these things, but that doesn't necessarily imply that you actually <em>apply</em> that knowledge!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As I noted above, I would think a new player joining an 'old school' group would be brought up to speed by the existing players. They won't fit in right away... but they wouldn't in 1e either, most likely.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm with you on this one, to an extent. My prediction, though, is that these mechanics will not get used very often. Instead, we'll see what we've seen in every edition thus far: the DM's good buddy Al, who is playing the Cha 5 Half-orc Barbarian, will use his own natural charm and way with words, and his relationship with the DM, to work through every 'social challenge' encounter in the game.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My prediction here is the opposite: that the inclusion of these mechanics will make it easier for <em>the DM</em> to include these effects, but that it will still be incumbent on the players to come up with solutions. And, barring standard effects (tilting floors, pit traps, teleport squares), Knowledge: Dungeoneering will be of little to no use. And, really, it <em>should</em> work on the standard stuff, since <em>we've</em> all seen it hundreds of times, so so will the adventurers of the world. It's time to come up with new stuff.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It will significantly <em>change</em> them, but I'm not sure about reduce. At present, it's all too common to see the party expend all their resources on one big encounter, then break for the day. And then repeat. There's no resource management there at all.</p><p></p><p>The new edition will shift some of that, so that the spellcasters are never truly out of resources, so there is motivation to continue the adventure. Which in turn gives them incentive to <em>not</em> blow everything on that first encounter. Which would be nice.</p><p></p><p>Or, we'll see absolutely no change: the party will exhaust their "per day" resources in the first encounter, and then break for the day. Which would not surprise me in the least, and which I would find frankly hilarious.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hopefully, the mechanics for the rest of the system will be considerably better than anything that has gone before. If they are not, then I agree entirely with your point - might as well stick with what you know, since it works.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="delericho, post: 3789837, member: 22424"] Two things: 1) If a new player joins an existing 'old school' group, then the rest of the group can bring him up to speed on the style they use. If a new player joins a new group, surely it doesn't matter whether the game impresses on them the importance of iron spikes - they'll develop their own style natually, and if they're having fun why does it matter? 2) I don't get why iron spikes are so essential to having an 'old school' style, and yet you've mentioned them three times? Note that I haven't read the 1st Edition books (I went from BD&D -> 2nd Ed -> 3e), but the DCC and Necromancer modules I've seen don't put undue emphasis on them. Is there something I've missed? You're right. My mistake. The best of the new modules should do that also. Although I'm inclined to think that the clues should tell you where to check, and maybe a bonus, rather than give automatic success. If the players fail to specify they're checking, the clues should also be obvious in hindsight - a trap generally shouldn't 'come out of nowhere'. Okay... But, to put not too fine a point on it: isn't that a valid question? The players aren't supposed to know the contents of the various Monster Manuals (for 'sense of wonder' reasons), so how are they to know there even [i]are[/i] such things as ear creepers, lurkers above, and so forth? And so, I would argue that those ranks in Knowledge: Dungeoneering [i]should[/i] be used for precisely that: the DM should inform the players in question of some of the likely hazards, with brief synopses, and then let them determine their responses accordingly. And, of course, the completeness of the information should depend on the quality of the roll - perhaps a marginal success only gives incomplete information, or gives a lot of 'false positive' results. And, in fact, that's entirely the intent of the skill: you might know about these things, but that doesn't necessarily imply that you actually [i]apply[/i] that knowledge! As I noted above, I would think a new player joining an 'old school' group would be brought up to speed by the existing players. They won't fit in right away... but they wouldn't in 1e either, most likely. I'm with you on this one, to an extent. My prediction, though, is that these mechanics will not get used very often. Instead, we'll see what we've seen in every edition thus far: the DM's good buddy Al, who is playing the Cha 5 Half-orc Barbarian, will use his own natural charm and way with words, and his relationship with the DM, to work through every 'social challenge' encounter in the game. My prediction here is the opposite: that the inclusion of these mechanics will make it easier for [i]the DM[/i] to include these effects, but that it will still be incumbent on the players to come up with solutions. And, barring standard effects (tilting floors, pit traps, teleport squares), Knowledge: Dungeoneering will be of little to no use. And, really, it [i]should[/i] work on the standard stuff, since [i]we've[/i] all seen it hundreds of times, so so will the adventurers of the world. It's time to come up with new stuff. It will significantly [i]change[/i] them, but I'm not sure about reduce. At present, it's all too common to see the party expend all their resources on one big encounter, then break for the day. And then repeat. There's no resource management there at all. The new edition will shift some of that, so that the spellcasters are never truly out of resources, so there is motivation to continue the adventure. Which in turn gives them incentive to [i]not[/i] blow everything on that first encounter. Which would be nice. Or, we'll see absolutely no change: the party will exhaust their "per day" resources in the first encounter, and then break for the day. Which would not surprise me in the least, and which I would find frankly hilarious. Hopefully, the mechanics for the rest of the system will be considerably better than anything that has gone before. If they are not, then I agree entirely with your point - might as well stick with what you know, since it works. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What is your top question/concern about 4th edition?
Top