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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8537283" data-attributes="member: 87792">To me there are two and a half major issues here.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fighter basically gets no new abilities between level 11 and level 20. And they've mostly already reached Str 20 and had their first choice (and thus best) feat by level 8.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Out of combat (and with most of the subclasses) the fighter is basically a commoner with nothing that helps.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Champion subclass of the fighter sucks and shouldn't even be given to newbies.</li> </ul>The first issue is a big one but barely taken account of by the question. (The level 11 3rd attack is good but after that? More Indomitable? More feats that weren't good enough at low level). Two level 11 wizards are going to struggle badly against a single level 19 - but two level 11 fighters? Yes the level 19 has more hit points, two extra proficiency bonus, and an extra use of Action Surge. But not a whole lot more than that. Fighters basically stop scaling.The out of combat issue is pretty major (unless you're e.g. an Echo Knight). You have a commoner's set of skills with your proficiency bonus and ... not a lot else. It starts to fall behind when the wizard can cast Fly and make most of the fighter's athletic skills seem like a second choice. There's another huge place the fighter falls behind IME at level 9 when the wizard gets to rearrange the terrain permanently with Wall of Stone with a snap of their fingers and some concentration. Something that would take the fighter days of effort and tons of raw material.</blockquote>

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