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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Minigiant" data-source="post: 8539082" data-attributes="member: 63508">Is that with or without "optional" feats and "optional" magic items?It's less that they are liars and more the mantra  of 5e is"We made it easy for your DM to fix it."5e was designed such that if you deviate from the designer's expected norm, it is very easy for your DM to adjust. This was different from 0e-4e wfere adjustment were real work and learn impossible on the fly5e falls apart if the DM or players cut stuff out and no counter adjustments are made. And the fighter class is most vulnerable to adjustments due to the nature of its job. Hence the level 20 fighter being seen equal to a level 13-16 wizard.</blockquote>