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What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9319078" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Well, this is a LOT of verbiage to address, but let me just point out that what GreatWolf is saying here is perfectly valid and congruent with what I'm saying! "So, for example, a Narrativist player is making story-based choices, and therefore he needs to have the freedom to make those choices."</p><p></p><p>What I think you are not appreciating is that, in the context of Narrativist protagonistic play meaningful choices are far more than simply choosing which of the proffered adventure locations to explore, or whether or not to Charm Person the NPC, or whatever. The Wikipedia entry on Protagonist is EXACTLY apropos here, as it makes clear that the protagonist makes "key decisions which affect the plot, primarily influencing the story and driving it forward." </p><p></p><p>You can dredge up whatever other definitions of 'protagonist' suite you, of course, but I have no idea why ones that are related to things like video games would have the slightest relevance. IMHO there is NO similarity between Narrativist RPG protagonism and that found in the vast majority of video games, so I don't find such definitions terribly relevant. </p><p></p><p>Again, as I said before, agency and protagonism are NOT IDENTICAL THINGS, you can possess agency without being a protagonist! So, I think you're 'problem with jargon' is simply you aren't analyzing this with enough clarity to see why certain distinctions needed to be made. Nor IMHO are the terms in their usage here exactly bizarre or hard to understand. 'de-protagonisim' or 'de-protagonization' seems like a pretty straighforward construct given the topic at hand. As for who recognizes it, are you really saying that anyone didn't understand the usage? Seriously?</p><p></p><p>And furthermore, I disagree with your position that there is only some hard and fast "when the GM enforces the railroad" as if anything short of absolute GM force is nothing at all... I have played in MANY MANY sessions of trad play, as recently as in the last several years, and I can say with total conviction that social convention and expectations brought in from long history of play of these types of games can be quite influential. Not only that, but systems that are designed for this type of play are fairly anemic in terms of providing other means. In Dungeon World for instance as soon as the players "look to the GM to see what happens next" or roll a 6- on some check, then the GM is bound to look at well-articulated character features, and/or mine answers to questions, or ask more questions, and supply a plot that is relevant to the PCs.</p><p></p><p>Which brings us to system, where it is just so vastly much easier to work with a system that is DESIGNED to give you protagonist PCs, in the fullest sense, vs one that, at best may not actively stand in the way, but doesn't actually facilitate it. And most, including 5e, DO in some ways actually stand in the way to at least some degree.</p><p></p><p>As for something like Dungeon World 'handcuffing' the GM... OK, so why the dual standard here? If you are going to maintain that a player who has some choices in play that will have some impact, has all the agency required to be a full protagonist, then why do you insist that a GM who must operate within certain strictures (and they're not very restrictive BTW) is 'handcuffed' and this is such a terrible thing? I've GMed plenty of DW and at now point in time was my imagination and agency as a GM to do stuff harmed by the need to adhere to the principles and practices of the game. It is like saying that Americans are not free because they have to obey some laws. It just doesn't fly.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9319078, member: 82106"] Well, this is a LOT of verbiage to address, but let me just point out that what GreatWolf is saying here is perfectly valid and congruent with what I'm saying! "So, for example, a Narrativist player is making story-based choices, and therefore he needs to have the freedom to make those choices." What I think you are not appreciating is that, in the context of Narrativist protagonistic play meaningful choices are far more than simply choosing which of the proffered adventure locations to explore, or whether or not to Charm Person the NPC, or whatever. The Wikipedia entry on Protagonist is EXACTLY apropos here, as it makes clear that the protagonist makes "key decisions which affect the plot, primarily influencing the story and driving it forward." You can dredge up whatever other definitions of 'protagonist' suite you, of course, but I have no idea why ones that are related to things like video games would have the slightest relevance. IMHO there is NO similarity between Narrativist RPG protagonism and that found in the vast majority of video games, so I don't find such definitions terribly relevant. Again, as I said before, agency and protagonism are NOT IDENTICAL THINGS, you can possess agency without being a protagonist! So, I think you're 'problem with jargon' is simply you aren't analyzing this with enough clarity to see why certain distinctions needed to be made. Nor IMHO are the terms in their usage here exactly bizarre or hard to understand. 'de-protagonisim' or 'de-protagonization' seems like a pretty straighforward construct given the topic at hand. As for who recognizes it, are you really saying that anyone didn't understand the usage? Seriously? And furthermore, I disagree with your position that there is only some hard and fast "when the GM enforces the railroad" as if anything short of absolute GM force is nothing at all... I have played in MANY MANY sessions of trad play, as recently as in the last several years, and I can say with total conviction that social convention and expectations brought in from long history of play of these types of games can be quite influential. Not only that, but systems that are designed for this type of play are fairly anemic in terms of providing other means. In Dungeon World for instance as soon as the players "look to the GM to see what happens next" or roll a 6- on some check, then the GM is bound to look at well-articulated character features, and/or mine answers to questions, or ask more questions, and supply a plot that is relevant to the PCs. Which brings us to system, where it is just so vastly much easier to work with a system that is DESIGNED to give you protagonist PCs, in the fullest sense, vs one that, at best may not actively stand in the way, but doesn't actually facilitate it. And most, including 5e, DO in some ways actually stand in the way to at least some degree. As for something like Dungeon World 'handcuffing' the GM... OK, so why the dual standard here? If you are going to maintain that a player who has some choices in play that will have some impact, has all the agency required to be a full protagonist, then why do you insist that a GM who must operate within certain strictures (and they're not very restrictive BTW) is 'handcuffed' and this is such a terrible thing? I've GMed plenty of DW and at now point in time was my imagination and agency as a GM to do stuff harmed by the need to adhere to the principles and practices of the game. It is like saying that Americans are not free because they have to obey some laws. It just doesn't fly. [/QUOTE]
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