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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9319201" data-attributes="member: 71699">You don't mean to say that popularity should be our measure of a great game, right? Perhaps this raises an interesting question about what a designer can demand of players? Is it okay if players need to learn how to play, and develop mastery? Are we in a rush? If so, why?I think when interested in the ludonarrative avant-garde, those qualities you list have lower priority. I'm okay with a design being demanding in ways that would be unacceptable for one with popular or commercial aspirations. Particularly when it is the qualities of game as game that I am here prioritising.I agree, albeit it seems tangential. I'm not ruling it out as a worthy goal... AW is a ground breaking take on it's goals.What I'm saying, however, is that having a ground breaking take on an apple can yet fail to satisfy one's desire for pear. Particularly when it's been apples all the way down until now. That doesn't mean I dislike apples, only that I can appreciate another perspective.To connect our arguments, I think you'd need to show where pursuing what matters in Western dramatic story has delivered understanding of what ought to distinctly matter to ludonarrative. I've given some examples. And I suppose if you want to refute me directly, show that narrativism wasn't focused on casting what was important in Western dramatism into play.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9319201, member: 71699"] You don't mean to say that popularity should be our measure of a great game, right? Perhaps this raises an interesting question about what a designer can demand of players? Is it okay if players need to learn how to play, and develop mastery? Are we in a rush? If so, why? I think when interested in the ludonarrative avant-garde, those qualities you list have lower priority. I'm okay with a design being demanding in ways that would be unacceptable for one with popular or commercial aspirations. Particularly when it is the qualities of game as [I]game[/I] that I am here prioritising. I agree, albeit it seems tangential. I'm not ruling it out as a worthy goal... AW is a ground breaking take on it's goals. What I'm saying, however, is that having a ground breaking take on an apple can yet fail to satisfy one's desire for pear. Particularly when it's been apples all the way down until now. That doesn't mean I dislike apples, only that I can appreciate another perspective. To connect our arguments, I think you'd need to show where pursuing what matters in Western dramatic story has delivered understanding of what ought to distinctly matter to ludonarrative. I've given some examples. And I suppose if you want to refute me directly, show that narrativism wasn't focused on casting what was important in Western dramatism into play. [/QUOTE]

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