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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9319933" data-attributes="member: 82106">Sigh, it gets rather exhausting. You don't like Forge-style Narrativist play, that's fine! The trashing of all of its exponents, etc. is OLD, at best. I had a full USENET news feed starting in 1982, IIRC (fed out of Maryville's VMS system IIRC). I've read a LOT of alt.rec.games! The RPG trash talk there is as old as the hills, and to try to dump on Ron Edwards and the Forge people as somehow atypical or even extreme is quite inaccurate. Your distaste for this type of play is entirely your business and, heck, your like or dislike of certain people isn't my business either, really. I just think it would behoove you to leave it out of your rhetoric. You will find that the discussion will be far more civil and focused on substantive issues. Likewise your, IMHO completely erroneous, equation of Narrativist Story Now play with a GM Railroad simply exposes a lack of insight into the techniques. I don't mean that as a stone to cast at anyone, but how else can I put it? I'm a mathematician, if you cannot explain L'Hôpital's Rule to me and use it to perform simple calculus tasks, then I don't think it would be mean of me to point out your lack of understanding in that subject! Otherwise, I mean, I don't have any problem at all with you having your preferences, etc. It might surprise you to discover that I am not personally all that hung up on specific forms of play myself. That is, I can enjoy a wide variety of RPGs, and it isn't really in my character to look for reasons to be displeased with a given instance of play. I mean, sure we all have SOME limits, but I think different styles surface different aspects of the various elements of RPGs. Like there's nothing wrong with crunchy 'deep game loop' play. Heck, TB2 does it REALLY well and its definitely got a lot of Narrativist DNA. I also think that some of the more purely Narrativist play is not nearly as shallow as you pass it off as, not shallow at all. There's a lot of 'stuff' going on in a Stonetop game, and I don't just mean "the logistics of the village." BitD, likewise, there's a LOT of skill in being able to balance 6 different spinning clocks and come up with clever ways to try to resolve them or keep them in play. Some of it may be 'fuzzier' than perhaps you like, but even coming up with good fiction isn't a cake walk. I mean, I tend to play with people who are adept at this sort of play, or at least really experienced RPG players in general. If I come up with some lame excuse for why we should tick a clock, it ain't going to fly! Now, maybe BitD is going to be a different game with some 13 year olds playing and hamming things up, I don't know.</blockquote>

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