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<blockquote data-quote="Aldarc" data-source="post: 9320366" data-attributes="member: 5142">I hope you understand that this point is irrelevant. Do you realize how many phenomena predate their terms? Did viruses and diseases not exist before scientists gave them their names? Or maybe do you think that scientists invented these diseases and are the cause for their existence? Do you think that no one was trying to &quot;beat the game&quot; or &quot;winning the game&quot; during the days of wargaming? Do you think that no one was approaching D&amp;D with a mindset of &quot;winning the dungeon&quot; or &quot;beating the game&quot; before being corrupted by your ridiculous video game boogeymen?I'm pretty sure that wargaming existed before video games and that D&amp;D came out of the wargaming hobby. I'm pretty sure that there was tournament play in D&amp;D where people would bring their awesome characters to try and beat dungeons. I'm pretty sure that gamism as a play agenda was meant to partially describe the playstyle that was prevalent in D&amp;D of playing to win, with Gamism as a term coming from Use.net days when video games were nowhere near as prevalent as they are today.Nah. But don't worry, there are computer games looking at TTRPGs for inspiration. However, you would be deeply misguided if you think that tabletop designers have nothing to learn from computer/video games.I'm talking about the roots of the hobby, our hobby's foundational beginnings, and a prevalent part of our hobby's play culture that has been there since the beginning. You are trying to pretend that it never happened and/or that it wasn't, presumably because you want to sell a narrative that blames video games.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Aldarc, post: 9320366, member: 5142"] I hope you understand that this point is irrelevant. Do you realize how many phenomena predate their terms? Did viruses and diseases not exist before scientists gave them their names? Or maybe do you think that scientists invented these diseases and are the cause for their existence? Do you think that no one was trying to "beat the game" or "winning the game" during the days of wargaming? Do you think that no one was approaching D&D with a mindset of "winning the dungeon" or "beating the game" before being corrupted by your ridiculous video game boogeymen? I'm pretty sure that wargaming existed before video games and that D&D came out of the wargaming hobby. I'm pretty sure that there was tournament play in D&D where people would bring their awesome characters to try and beat dungeons. I'm pretty sure that gamism as a play agenda was meant to partially describe the playstyle that was prevalent in D&D of playing to win, with Gamism as a term coming from Use.net days when video games were nowhere near as prevalent as they are today. Nah. But don't worry, there are computer games looking at TTRPGs for inspiration. However, you would be [I]deeply misguided[/I] if you think that tabletop designers have nothing to learn from computer/video games. I'm talking about the roots of the hobby, our hobby's foundational beginnings, and a prevalent part of our hobby's play culture that has been there since the beginning. You are trying to pretend that it never happened and/or that it wasn't, presumably because you want to sell a narrative that blames video games. [/QUOTE]

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