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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9326694" data-attributes="member: 71699">&quot;Objective&quot; is certainly closer to the sense I intend than &quot;salient&quot; or &quot;significant&quot;. I'm thinking about what I can pretend is real, and what I can pretend exists and has standing in its own right... that I can pretend exists apart from me.So when I am pretending that the Great Library exists, I am pretending that I can go away, stop thinking about it for awhile, and it will still be there. I could ask whoever has the job of describing it &quot;Any news fron the Great Library?&quot; And it is possible there would be. Things can happen to it, not always of my own hand.Whether one wants to only make the significant or salient objective is a separate question. It sounds like some do and others do not. One could even decide on a very weak definition for salience and say it is salient if it appears in our play at all.Folk have used words in the past like consistency, persistence, plausibility, credibility, realism. I feel the last three are doubtful as it is all pretended and thus in our real world subjective... down in good part to norms. Apparently normal barring accepted exceptions might be a better way of looking at it.X feels objective if I can sustain a pretence that X exists separately from me. That I can pretend, contrary to the truth, that the game world exists. One quality of a separate world is that it's not all about me: ergo insisting on salience would have an effect opposite that proposed.I'm not incidentally arguing that it must be or is only this way. I'm speaking more on the side of how to achieve it when that is what you want. In that light, perhaps what you are saying is that you want only the significant or salient. A mode of play.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9326694, member: 71699"] "Objective" is certainly closer to the sense I intend than "salient" or "significant". I'm thinking about what I can pretend is real, and what I can pretend exists and has standing in its own right... that I can pretend exists apart from me. So when I am pretending that the Great Library exists, I am pretending that I can go away, stop thinking about it for awhile, and it will still be there. I could ask whoever has the job of describing it "Any news fron the Great Library?" And it is possible there would be. Things can happen to it, not always of my own hand. Whether one wants to only make the significant or salient objective is a separate question. It sounds like some do and others do not. One could even decide on a very weak definition for salience and say it is salient if it appears in our play at all. Folk have used words in the past like consistency, persistence, plausibility, credibility, realism. I feel the last three are doubtful as it is all pretended and thus in our real world subjective... down in good part to norms. Apparently normal barring accepted exceptions might be a better way of looking at it. X feels objective if I can sustain a pretence that X exists separately from me. That I can pretend, contrary to the truth, that the game world exists. One quality of a separate world is that it's not all about me: ergo insisting on salience would have an effect opposite that proposed. I'm not incidentally arguing that it must be or is only this way. I'm speaking more on the side of how to achieve it when that is what you want. In that light, perhaps what you are saying is that you want only the significant or salient. A mode of play. [/QUOTE]

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