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What makes an TTRPG a "Narrative Game" (Daggerheart Discussion)
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9331385" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>So on this account a prompt that an English teacher gives to the class - say, that contains a photograph, an obituary, a calendar page and a snippet of narrative text, with the instruction to the class "write a story that incorporates these prompt elements" - is a ludonarrative.</p><p></p><p>So are some poems, and some visual artworks.</p><p></p><p>And that's because all you are describing, with the words "an assemblage of deliberately chosen signifiers . . . all containing narrative potential without committing to a single told story" is a collection of imaginary stuff deliberately put together, that might inspire someone to imagine a story that incorporates them all.</p><p></p><p>Confining these "ludonarratives" to the RPGing context, they seem to describe what would conventionally be called <em>a RPG rulebook</em> that includes some <em>setting elements</em> - eg the Burning Wheel rulebook, or the Classic Traveller rulebook, or the 4e D&D rulebook. Even the Rolemaster rulebook.</p><p></p><p>This has nothing to do with "story now" or "narrativism" as an approach to RPGing, except that narrativism <em>is</em> an approach to RPGing.</p><p></p><p>But there is no such type of narrative. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by a "story game", but there many types of narrative that can be created via the play of one - eg I have played Rolemaster and 4e D&D and created narratives about mythic figures who save the cosmos from some apparent fate, by stepping outside the (seemingly) pre-ordained cosmological laws or principles; and I have played Wuthering Heights and created an over-the-top story about over-sensitive Victorian individuals in a class-ridden and convention-constrained society, with an occult twist to it.</p><p></p><p>None of these stories <em>supervene</em> on any story games. The stories could be different with no change to the game's rules, or rules text, or setting. (Maybe you are using "supervenes" in some non-standard sense?)</p><p></p><p>I have no idea in what way any of them is supposed to be a "ludonarrative", in that none of them is an assemblage of the sort that you describe.</p><p></p><p>In addition, it seems obvious to me that there is no story, nor any meaningful class of stories, that supervenes on (say) the Burning Wheel rulebook. If you know that someone is playing a game of Burning Wheel, you can conjecture that their fiction will probably involve mediaeval fantasy elements. And that's it! If "ludonarrative" is nothing more than "stories of a genre that fits the rulebook", I don't find it a very helpful category.</p><p></p><p>(I did briefly review the Wikipedia entry on "Ergodic Literature". It has a list if examples that includes choose your own adventures, which were the first things I thought of. It also mentions D&D modules, though I think the discussion of those on the page is woefully underanalysed - for a start, it appears to assume that there is a single "the story" of the module, which is true for some modules (eg some DL ones) but not others (eg B2). I don't believe that the notion of "ergodic literature" sheds much light on RPGing outside of the context of playing through railroads.)</p><p></p><p>I'm pretty familiar with AW and "stakes questions" as part of front design. And I know that they are taken from Trollbabe.</p><p></p><p><em>Stakes</em> are not an in-fiction property of people or events (to use some people's favourite word, they are not "diegetic"). Stakes are an aspect of the fiction that is described by actual people who are playing the game. This is why I say there are no stakes for NPCs: unless the GM is playing the game with themself! Stakes are about <em>finding out, via the play of the game, what happens to the things the players are connected to via their PCs</em>. And this is why the AW rulebook puts the fate of the holding at stake <em>when a player is playing a hardholder</em>. This is why threats and fronts, and the associated stakes questions, are written <em>after the first session</em> in which it has been established who the PCs are, what matters to them, etc.</p><p></p><p>A RPG in which the GM decides, in advance and unilateraly, what is at stake in all the key moments of play - eg the DL modules - is the opposite of player-driven RPGing. It's what I call a railroad.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9331385, member: 42582"] So on this account a prompt that an English teacher gives to the class - say, that contains a photograph, an obituary, a calendar page and a snippet of narrative text, with the instruction to the class "write a story that incorporates these prompt elements" - is a ludonarrative. So are some poems, and some visual artworks. And that's because all you are describing, with the words "an assemblage of deliberately chosen signifiers . . . all containing narrative potential without committing to a single told story" is a collection of imaginary stuff deliberately put together, that might inspire someone to imagine a story that incorporates them all. Confining these "ludonarratives" to the RPGing context, they seem to describe what would conventionally be called [I]a RPG rulebook[/I] that includes some [I]setting elements[/I] - eg the Burning Wheel rulebook, or the Classic Traveller rulebook, or the 4e D&D rulebook. Even the Rolemaster rulebook. This has nothing to do with "story now" or "narrativism" as an approach to RPGing, except that narrativism [I]is[/I] an approach to RPGing. But there is no such type of narrative. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by a "story game", but there many types of narrative that can be created via the play of one - eg I have played Rolemaster and 4e D&D and created narratives about mythic figures who save the cosmos from some apparent fate, by stepping outside the (seemingly) pre-ordained cosmological laws or principles; and I have played Wuthering Heights and created an over-the-top story about over-sensitive Victorian individuals in a class-ridden and convention-constrained society, with an occult twist to it. None of these stories [I]supervene[/I] on any story games. The stories could be different with no change to the game's rules, or rules text, or setting. (Maybe you are using "supervenes" in some non-standard sense?) I have no idea in what way any of them is supposed to be a "ludonarrative", in that none of them is an assemblage of the sort that you describe. In addition, it seems obvious to me that there is no story, nor any meaningful class of stories, that supervenes on (say) the Burning Wheel rulebook. If you know that someone is playing a game of Burning Wheel, you can conjecture that their fiction will probably involve mediaeval fantasy elements. And that's it! If "ludonarrative" is nothing more than "stories of a genre that fits the rulebook", I don't find it a very helpful category. (I did briefly review the Wikipedia entry on "Ergodic Literature". It has a list if examples that includes choose your own adventures, which were the first things I thought of. It also mentions D&D modules, though I think the discussion of those on the page is woefully underanalysed - for a start, it appears to assume that there is a single "the story" of the module, which is true for some modules (eg some DL ones) but not others (eg B2). I don't believe that the notion of "ergodic literature" sheds much light on RPGing outside of the context of playing through railroads.) I'm pretty familiar with AW and "stakes questions" as part of front design. And I know that they are taken from Trollbabe. [I]Stakes[/I] are not an in-fiction property of people or events (to use some people's favourite word, they are not "diegetic"). Stakes are an aspect of the fiction that is described by actual people who are playing the game. This is why I say there are no stakes for NPCs: unless the GM is playing the game with themself! Stakes are about [I]finding out, via the play of the game, what happens to the things the players are connected to via their PCs[/I]. And this is why the AW rulebook puts the fate of the holding at stake [I]when a player is playing a hardholder[/I]. This is why threats and fronts, and the associated stakes questions, are written [I]after the first session[/I] in which it has been established who the PCs are, what matters to them, etc. A RPG in which the GM decides, in advance and unilateraly, what is at stake in all the key moments of play - eg the DL modules - is the opposite of player-driven RPGing. It's what I call a railroad. [/QUOTE]
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