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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9331703" data-attributes="member: 82106">But to me this reads like a description of trad play! Where are, in Narrativist play these 'assemblages of signifiers' located? How does the narrative supervene on these things? Yes, all play produces ludonarrative, but this is a pretty empty observation! The whole point here is the question of where do these signifiers come from in Narrativist play? So, when [USER=7025508]@Crimson Longinus[/USER] talks about ordinary criminal activities being put forward by the BitD GM as the focus of play, it doesn't sound like Narrativist play to me because I don't see how the GM is engaged with the elements put forward by the players. Did he take the stakes put on the table by them? I didn't get that impression, it sounds more like he dreamed up a situation and just dropped it on them, like &quot;well this week the Billhooks decided to beat up your pickpockets and take over the marketplace!&quot; Now this might be a decent entre to a score, but that's assuming the crew created trouble with the Billhooks (mechanically represented by faction clock going negative). It's also going to tie into turf, plus likely some rivals, maybe a threat to someone's vice provider, or more general relationships/alliances.Now we begin to see what these mechanics are really FOR in BitD. Yes, the GM can frame things, but it is this framing that supervenes what the players have established through previous action, declarations constituted by game rules, and the mechanics which interact with those elements.In other words, if the crew muscles in on the Billhooks, they push back! The fact that the lurk set up a lucrative pickpocket ring in the marketplace just about obligated the GM to go there!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9331703, member: 82106"] But to me this reads like a description of trad play! Where are, in Narrativist play these 'assemblages of signifiers' located? How does the narrative supervene on these things? Yes, all play produces ludonarrative, but this is a pretty empty observation! The whole point here is the question of where do these signifiers come from in Narrativist play? So, when [USER=7025508]@Crimson Longinus[/USER] talks about ordinary criminal activities being put forward by the BitD GM as the focus of play, it doesn't sound like Narrativist play to me because I don't see how the GM is engaged with the elements put forward by the players. Did he take the stakes put on the table by them? I didn't get that impression, it sounds more like he dreamed up a situation and just dropped it on them, like "well this week the Billhooks decided to beat up your pickpockets and take over the marketplace!" Now this might be a decent entre to a score, but that's assuming the crew created trouble with the Billhooks (mechanically represented by faction clock going negative). It's also going to tie into turf, plus likely some rivals, maybe a threat to someone's vice provider, or more general relationships/alliances. Now we begin to see what these mechanics are really FOR in BitD. Yes, the GM can frame things, but it is this framing that supervenes what the players have established through previous action, declarations constituted by game rules, and the mechanics which interact with those elements. In other words, if the crew muscles in on the Billhooks, they push back! The fact that the lurk set up a lucrative pickpocket ring in the marketplace just about obligated the GM to go there! [/QUOTE]

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