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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9334918" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't know what this means. Variance in respect of what?I mean, there is a lot that can be said about the respective role of players and GMs in scene-framing. As one example, Gygax's PHB assumes that players will play a key role in scene-framing, by (i) obtaining information about the contents of various rooms in the dungeon, and then (ii) opening the doors of those rooms - thereby "triggering" those scenes - and trying to defeat/evade the inhabitants so as to get the treasure. This structure of play is key to Gygaxian gamism.Later approaches to AD&D - which seem to have continued into 3E and 5e D&D - eschew step (i) as part of the expected procedure of play. Thus, players trigger scenes much more "blindly" and with the GM having correspondingly more control over what scenes are triggered. This certainly changes the nature of any gamism - giving it much more of a lottery element, at least from the players' perspective. It can also feed into a general decline in gamist orientation and an increase in "being there" high concept simulationism.The preceding is just a small bit of what might be said even about map-and-key as a technique, and the different ways it can support scene-framing, and the different sorts of aesthetic goal that may in turn be well-served by such scene-framing.Is this an example of "variance"? If so, it strikes me as very odd that you think  I need to have it drawn to my attention, given that more than anyone else on these boards, and certainly in this thread, I provide actual examples - from various RPGs and common procedures and techniques used with them - of the complex interrelationships between mechanics, techniques, procedures and aesthetic goals.What does it mean to say that a game has a "scene" property? Do you mean that a scene is framed as part of the game? More than one?And what does it mean to say that a game has the "framed" property?Because, again, I don't really follow what you are saying, I don't know how to answer. I mean, I already posted this upthread: does it bear upon the questions you ask here?I've also often quoted a key bit of BW player instruction text - is it relevant?I've frequently posted about some of the things I do, as a player in Burning Wheel, to try and make sure that scenes that interest me are being framed.I've also often posted about how, as a BW GM, I set about framing scenes that I hope and believe will be interesting for the players.I have no idea what you are positing to be a binary. Like, how can intensity be a binary? Intensity of necessity admits of degree, as far as I can tell.</blockquote>

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