What makes Dragons so good ?

Phasics

First Post
Yes apart from the "Cool" factor.

Looking at playing a Dragon PC in a mid level campaign so would most likely be a Wyrmling to start with.

My question is what acutally makes these little critters so good, I mean even the weakest varieties are still a ECL 6-7. I then considered that perhaps the numbers don't tell the whole story as on paper a wyrmling is pretty average stat wise vs a lv6-7 humanoid PC.

So I guess the real question is how to get the most out of your wyrmling, which i guess falls onto how a dragon should be play'd,
 

log in or register to remove this ad

d12s HD, full BAB, all good saves, 6 skill points, very high speed flight, darkvision, breath weapon, crazy good natural armor, lots of natural attacks, and other stuff to boot.
 

As a player? Nothing, really, other than the "coolness factor" The ECL pretty much compensates for the goodies, and for the most part, a Dragon's abilities are defensive in nature ... and defense is a losing game in D&D.

With a Very Young Red, a Young Red, a Very Young Gold, or a Young Gold, the racial strength bonus is high enough that (as a meatshield), your attack bonus isn't behind the curve; additionally, those four are big enough that you're actually able to use those extra attacks to reasonable effect. If you're playing a meatshield at high levels, it can be mechanically worth it. The other PC available dragons fall behind in the offense department for a meatshield.

As a skillmonkey, you want the lowliest dragon you can find - Wyrmling White, Wyrmling Brass, or Pseudodragon - the Dragon's 6+Int skill points per level HD helps out there, as does the Tiny size in those three cases, and you're only losing a little to LA (+2, +2, +3). There, you're going primarily after the dragon senses (Darkvision, blindsense, and so on) plus movement modes (Fly, burrow, swim) and bonuses to certain skills (most notably Hide). As a Skillmonkey, a Wyrmling White, Wyrmling Brass, or Pseudodragon can be worthwhile. The others aren't.

For a caster, the loss of spellcasting progression (5, at a minimum) is very much not worth it.

The big points for dragons is that their CR is lower than it should be.
 

Dragons are pretty poor choices mechanically for player characters. Your damage will be below what a warrior of similar ECL would be able to dish out. Compared to a rogue they will be slightly hardier in HP and saves, but lack certain key skills (disable, open lock, sleight of hand if you like it) which are generally considered necessary for the role.

Dragon HD are arguably equal to class levels (d12, 1/1 BAB, good skills, but few class abilities) but the LA tacked on top hurts a lot.
 

Corsair said:
Dragons are pretty poor choices mechanically for player characters. Your damage will be below what a warrior of similar ECL would be able to dish out......Dragon HD are arguably equal to class levels (d12, 1/1 BAB, good skills, but few class abilities) but the LA tacked on top hurts a lot.
I'm in agreement. By itself the Dragon HD is about 3/4 of a PC class. When you add the stat mods and special abilities it brings them into parity in the HD ranges that players are likely to be making PCs for. None of their abilities are ones that PCs can't get a hold of somehow. Many of them are ones the PCs can get by fairly low to mid levels too either via spell or magic item. While LA is a very poor attempt at a balancing mechanism that just handicaps them in all the most important areas, HD, Saves, and AB.

What I suggest is allowing CR to be your guide. PCs who aren't poorly made will run from at to a bit above their official CR value. Thus if you're judging a monster race PC you should check out the CR first. A cleric level is worth roughly 1.2CR per class HD. For example a Young Black Dragon is 10HD and worth about 9CR (including +4CR adjustment). While a 10HD wizard is worth 12CR. In general all the way to about juvenile age category true dragons are worth somewhere between a wizard and a druid of equal HD.

They often get a bad rap because of innate abilities, but this is a perception issue. A DM sees these abilities innate to the race and accords them more value than they're really worth because they're not used to dealing with these kind of racial abilities with PHB races. What they should really be comparing them to is the repetoire of a wizard or cleric. A full progression caster can bring down just as much damage, fly, temporarily gain alternate senses, etc. On top of that their abilities are configurable where the racial abilities of a monster race PC are set and unchanging.
 

So basically it would be a reasonable house rule to say
Dragon CR+LA = ECL instead of HD+LA = ECL

In effect using a Copper Wyrmling as a starting point

Copper Wyrmling
CR3 + LA2 = ECL 5
5d12+5 (37) Racial HD

Copper Very Young
CR5 + LA3 = ECL 8
8d12+8 (60) Racial HD

In Effect Racial HD = ECL , assuming you don't extend this ruling past Juvenile it seems to work out ok, as most of the good Dragon stuff like DragonFear, Spell Resistence, spell like abilities etc don't kick in until young adult.


Here's a Max Variant
Does a Copper
Juvenile Medium size ECL 14
14d12+28 (119) HP
8d4 Breath Weapon DC 19
3rd level Caster

Fit into a lv14 group of PC's without being over or underpowered ?



Another Q
Assuming you play a Copper wyrmling from the beginning of a campaign in a group of 5th level adventuers what should the class/racial prgrogression look like to keep the dragon at or around the same power as the PC's

16 racial Dragon HD (up to Juvenille) and 4 class levels
Something Like
Wyrmling 5 ECL5
Class 1 ECL6
Wyrmling 6 ECL7
Wyrmling 7 ECL8
Very Young 8 ECL9
Class 2 ECL10
Very Young 9 ECL11
Very Young 10 ECL12
Young 11 ECL13
Class 3 ECL14
Young 12 ECL15
Young 13 ECL16
Juvenille 14 ECL17
Class 4 ECL18
Juvenille 15 ECL19
Juvenille 16 ECL20

Would that balence against a regular PC of equivalent ECL ? I chose Copper because its in the weaker class of dragons I don't think a similar progression would hold true for a Silver or Gold Dragon
 
Last edited:

Phasics said:
So basically it would be a reasonable house rule to say
Dragon CR+LA = ECL instead of HD+LA = ECL
That tends to work. Some of the additional true dragons from supplements need an adjustment here or there due to particular abilities. Such as the Pyroclastic Dragon with its Save or Die breath weapon:)
In Effect Racial HD = ECL , assuming you don't extend this ruling past Juvenile it seems to work out ok, as most of the good Dragon stuff like DragonFear, Spell Resistence, spell like abilities etc don't kick in until young adult.
Yep the key is the Young Adult age category, this is where many of the true dragons get a kicker of Teh Gud Stuf. Things that put them beyond use as PCs. The spellcasting is icing, the boosters are really DragonFear and especially Spell Resistance. You can dump the last two and extend it a while for some of the less powerful true dragons for epic level play. But even then the stat bonus really start to rack up past juvenile, faster than normal PC races can compete even with lots of ability boosting items.

In play I generally allow True Dragons up to Juvenile as equivalent to their racial HD in level. But reduce their point buy some as compensation for certain (mostly metallic) true dragons, others need those points to maintain a reasonable int at low age categories (like the White). Don't be afraid of Dragon PCs, the most fun campaign I ever played in was a party composed entirely of adolescent true dragons. The inventiveness and IC banter and roleplay was just incredible.

Here's a Max Variant
Does a Copper
Juvenile Medium size ECL 14
14d12+28 (119) HP
8d4 Breath Weapon DC 19
3rd level Caster
He's about on-par for a 14th level party, the capabilities aren't distributed quite like any PC class but they're batting about the same.

Extended Review
[sblock]His HP will be about on par with a fighter or barbarian of equivalent level . If you seen charging or lancer builds he's got about the same role, a resilient mobile front-line combatant. He can fly but a spell has let the fighters do this since 5th and by now overland travel boosts via spell or item are available. The breath weapon is a nice source of reliable damage but the full progression casters can pile on more raw damage if they want. And they're tossing SoDs by this time on top of it, in some cases have been since 8th level. His casting is offensively inconsequential, about the limit of its use is utility spells and self-buffing. Opponents of reasonably close to its level will not fail saving throws on offensive magic.[/sblock]

Assuming you play a Copper wyrmling from the beginning of a campaign in a group of 5th level adventuers what should the class/racial prgrogression look like to keep the dragon at or around the same power as the PC's
I'd say you're example looks good. The class levels are spread out, there's a steady progression through the age categories and it ends up at the right place. I don't allow silvers or golds as PCs because they were specifically made as uberdragons with additional ability bonuses and extra powers. The alternate form isn't really an issue considering the ability of casters to mimic it. But especially the higher Str and Int/Wis/Cha progression are the issue.

The Draconominicon recommends advancing their racial abilities based on in-game age. But with how quickly many campaigns wrap up in terms of in-game chronology this is frustrating and tends to deny a player the ability to shine as a dragon rather than just a scaley PC. I tend to use one of two methods.

The first is much like yours, since each age category has 3 racial HD you get 1 PC class level per age category. Some of the prestige classes from Draconominicon can be downgraded some and included here too. Split either after the first or before the last racial HD of an age category.

The second is as much a setting change as PC progression change. In this version dragons mature to juvenile level rather quickly then have a long pause before making the jump to full maturity as a Young Adult. All the HD up to Juvenile are racial HD, then you start adding on class levels afterwards.

Other Advice:
@ Beyond the ordinary checking out for any Dragon PC, splatbook True Dragons need to be carefully looked over before approval. I refer you to the previously mentioned pyroclastic dragon and its SoD disintegrate breath weapon.
@ All true dragons are the wrong size category. Their official sizes are at the upper end of the next size category above what's listed in the MM or SRD. Dragons listed as "Medium" by the MM are in fact 16 ft long, "large" dragons are in fact 31 ft long.
@ Dragons are capable of crude opposability on the level of an ape with their fore talons when they're not standing on them. Even so one of the most interesting parts of a dragon character are the physical differences from more ordinary humanoid PCs and these should see some use.
@ Let dragon racial caster levels stack with class caster levels.
 
Last edited:

The best thing our large Bronze dragon does for the group: He's a mount that does not die.

Something the gnome cleric and the hobgoblin archer really enjoy.

PS: That dragon is a few levels above the other group members, still he's comparatively weak in combat and other abilities.
 


HeavenShallBurn said:
That tends to work. Some of the additional true dragons from supplements need an adjustment here or there due to particular abilities. Such as the Pyroclastic Dragon with its Save or Die breath weapon:)

Yep the key is the Young Adult age category, this is where many of the true dragons get a kicker of Teh Gud Stuf. Things that put them beyond use as PCs. The spellcasting is icing, the boosters are really DragonFear and especially Spell Resistance. You can dump the last two and extend it a while for some of the less powerful true dragons for epic level play. But even then the stat bonus really start to rack up past juvenile, faster than normal PC races can compete even with lots of ability boosting items.

In play I generally allow True Dragons up to Juvenile as equivalent to their racial HD in level. But reduce their point buy some as compensation for certain (mostly metallic) true dragons, others need those points to maintain a reasonable int at low age categories (like the White). Don't be afraid of Dragon PCs, the most fun campaign I ever played in was a party composed entirely of adolescent true dragons. The inventiveness and IC banter and roleplay was just incredible.


He's about on-par for a 14th level party, the capabilities aren't distributed quite like any PC class but they're batting about the same.

Extended Review
[sblock]His HP will be about on par with a fighter or barbarian of equivalent level . If you seen charging or lancer builds he's got about the same role, a resilient mobile front-line combatant. He can fly but a spell has let the fighters do this since 5th and by now overland travel boosts via spell or item are available. The breath weapon is a nice source of reliable damage but the full progression casters can pile on more raw damage if they want. And they're tossing SoDs by this time on top of it, in some cases have been since 8th level. His casting is offensively inconsequential, about the limit of its use is utility spells and self-buffing. Opponents of reasonably close to its level will not fail saving throws on offensive magic.[/sblock]


I'd say you're example looks good. The class levels are spread out, there's a steady progression through the age categories and it ends up at the right place. I don't allow silvers or golds as PCs because they were specifically made as uberdragons with additional ability bonuses and extra powers. The alternate form isn't really an issue considering the ability of casters to mimic it. But especially the higher Str and Int/Wis/Cha progression are the issue.

The Draconominicon recommends advancing their racial abilities based on in-game age. But with how quickly many campaigns wrap up in terms of in-game chronology this is frustrating and tends to deny a player the ability to shine as a dragon rather than just a scaley PC. I tend to use one of two methods.

The first is much like yours, since each age category has 3 racial HD you get 1 PC class level per age category. Some of the prestige classes from Draconominicon can be downgraded some and included here too. Split either after the first or before the last racial HD of an age category.

The second is as much a setting change as PC progression change. In this version dragons mature to juvenile level rather quickly then have a long pause before making the jump to full maturity as a Young Adult. All the HD up to Juvenile are racial HD, then you start adding on class levels afterwards.

Other Advice:
@ Beyond the ordinary checking out for any Dragon PC, splatbook True Dragons need to be carefully looked over before approval. I refer you to the previously mentioned pyroclastic dragon and its SoD disintegrate breath weapon.
@ All true dragons are the wrong size category. Their official sizes are at the upper end of the next size category above what's listed in the MM or SRD. Dragons listed as "Medium" by the MM are in fact 16 ft long, "large" dragons are in fact 31 ft long.
@ Dragons are capable of crude opposability on the level of an ape with their fore talons when they're not standing on them. Even so one of the most interesting parts of a dragon character are the physical differences from more ordinary humanoid PCs and these should see some use.
@ Let dragon racial caster levels stack with class caster levels.


Thanks Man that was some really informative posting :D
 

Remove ads

Top