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General Tabletop Discussion
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what might have the formative history of RPGs be without D&D? or would it have even happened?
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<blockquote data-quote="aramis erak" data-source="post: 9424747" data-attributes="member: 6779310"><p>Braunstein was a not entirely unprecedented bit. </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A number of narrative wargames existed, using pencil and paper.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Frei Kreigspiele is the direct parent of the mode of play used by Dave Weseley </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Diplomacy is often played in Player as Head of State thought process.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Model UN dates back to 1921... and was fairly popular in US Education by 1970.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A small number of Character Scale wargames existed.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Most minis skirmish games were 1<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/1.gif" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":1:" title="One :1:" data-shortname=":1:" />:figure:man scale</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Many had "when </li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">improv comedy was common, live shows.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It was also used as a parlor game.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the first improv TV show was before 1950.... <em><u>What Happens Now?</u></em> in 1949, 22 episodes, or so wikipedia lists.</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">radio plays were still common. The HHGTTG and Star Wars radioplays were 1980 or so...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Colossal Caves already existed <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The mode of play is 1st person text, and has been since its creation in the 1960's</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">it was the first, but not the last, pre-D&D first person text game.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The real boost in it came in the mid 70's with D&D feeding in, but I'm not sure that that wouldn't have happened otherwise; the key elements were present in a late 60's wargames: unit experience, hit points...</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The SCA has been around since the 1960's.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">the rise of "Me first" thinking in the US populace and tolerance of non-conformity (probably the single most important social change within the US) from the early 1960's on...</li> </ul><p></p><p>All the precursors were there. </p><p></p><p>Add me first, improv comedy, and radioplays, and you get storygaming.</p><p>Add Colossal Caves and character scale wargaming to model UN, and eventually you get asks for things uncovered; sooner or later someone says, "Sure, Why not?" </p><p>Likewise, GMs in Frei Kriegspiele saying, "go ahead and roll for it." And a difficulty is set. This is pretty much what happened in Braunstein III.</p><p></p><p>I know my own early 80's complaint about Zork and Planetfall was the narrow range of actions allowed. Ultima wasn't much better on choices, but had longer storylines and much better combat; it was explicitly inspired by D&D (source: Richard "Lord British" Garriot, multiple interviews on TV and youtube.)</p><p></p><p>What amazes me isn't that it happened, but that it regularized so quickly amongst gaming... and then divided off making false dichotomies twixt TTRPGs←→Minis Wargames, TTRPGs←→CRPGs, TTRPGs←→P&P Wargames (such as the campaign game mode of Starfire comes to mind, but older games did similar, I just don't have names to hand).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aramis erak, post: 9424747, member: 6779310"] Braunstein was a not entirely unprecedented bit. [LIST] [*]A number of narrative wargames existed, using pencil and paper. [LIST] [*]Frei Kreigspiele is the direct parent of the mode of play used by Dave Weseley [*]Diplomacy is often played in Player as Head of State thought process. [*]Model UN dates back to 1921... and was fairly popular in US Education by 1970. [/LIST] [*]A small number of Character Scale wargames existed. [LIST] [*]Most minis skirmish games were 1:1::figure:man scale [*]Many had "when [/LIST] [*]improv comedy was common, live shows. [LIST] [*]It was also used as a parlor game. [*]the first improv TV show was before 1950.... [I][U]What Happens Now?[/U][/I] in 1949, 22 episodes, or so wikipedia lists. [/LIST] [*]radio plays were still common. The HHGTTG and Star Wars radioplays were 1980 or so... [*]Colossal Caves already existed [LIST] [*]The mode of play is 1st person text, and has been since its creation in the 1960's [*]it was the first, but not the last, pre-D&D first person text game. [*]The real boost in it came in the mid 70's with D&D feeding in, but I'm not sure that that wouldn't have happened otherwise; the key elements were present in a late 60's wargames: unit experience, hit points... [/LIST] [*]The SCA has been around since the 1960's. [*]the rise of "Me first" thinking in the US populace and tolerance of non-conformity (probably the single most important social change within the US) from the early 1960's on... [/LIST] All the precursors were there. Add me first, improv comedy, and radioplays, and you get storygaming. Add Colossal Caves and character scale wargaming to model UN, and eventually you get asks for things uncovered; sooner or later someone says, "Sure, Why not?" Likewise, GMs in Frei Kriegspiele saying, "go ahead and roll for it." And a difficulty is set. This is pretty much what happened in Braunstein III. I know my own early 80's complaint about Zork and Planetfall was the narrow range of actions allowed. Ultima wasn't much better on choices, but had longer storylines and much better combat; it was explicitly inspired by D&D (source: Richard "Lord British" Garriot, multiple interviews on TV and youtube.) What amazes me isn't that it happened, but that it regularized so quickly amongst gaming... and then divided off making false dichotomies twixt TTRPGs←→Minis Wargames, TTRPGs←→CRPGs, TTRPGs←→P&P Wargames (such as the campaign game mode of Starfire comes to mind, but older games did similar, I just don't have names to hand). [/QUOTE]
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