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<blockquote data-quote="Brazeku" data-source="post: 3578239" data-attributes="member: 48916">I've found divination magic to be ubiquitous in most campaigns I've played in, and especially those I've run.&nbsp; All our wizards have taken divination magic, and clerics can just ask for it on any given day (even the little level two spell &quot;augury&quot; can give you a weal or woe; as player I will wind up using it 2 or 3 times per game day on average).&nbsp; But of course YMMV. I also think, even if they do get burnt, players will only have strong expectations the first time.&nbsp; After the universe smacks them for making an improper choice, you'd better believe they will be seeking divine guidance.I agree that it can be a weakness with certain types of players - the types of players who wouldn't enjoy morality play in the first place.Avoiding obviously sussable Good/Evil doesn't mean that there is no Good and Evil but what the players think.&nbsp; The real world offers little feedback in terms of a universal moral compass, and yet plenty of people believe in Good and Evil, and there are literally hundreds of rich philosophical traditions which center around them.&nbsp; I find that the lack of a definite produces a continuum of belief and real agony over choices, as opposed to straight up dichotomies.You can ask about the outcome of particular actions, and you can ask if an action is good or evil, get a straight up yes/no, and act accordingly.&nbsp; You can stab the divination in the foot with a time constraint, but that gets old quickly.&nbsp; That would be the first tactic I would use as a GM that comes to mind, before I stripped alignment from all the classes and characters/NPCs/monsters completely and replaced it with a motivation based system.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Brazeku, post: 3578239, member: 48916"] I've found divination magic to be ubiquitous in most campaigns I've played in, and especially those I've run. All our wizards have taken divination magic, and clerics can just ask for it on any given day (even the little level two spell "augury" can give you a weal or woe; as player I will wind up using it 2 or 3 times per game day on average). But of course YMMV. I also think, even if they do get burnt, players will only have strong expectations the first time. After the universe smacks them for making an improper choice, you'd better believe they will be seeking divine guidance. I agree that it can be a weakness with certain types of players - the types of players who wouldn't enjoy morality play in the first place. Avoiding obviously sussable Good/Evil doesn't mean that there is no Good and Evil but what the players think. The real world offers little feedback in terms of a universal moral compass, and yet plenty of people believe in Good and Evil, and there are literally hundreds of rich philosophical traditions which center around them. I find that the lack of a definite produces a continuum of belief and real agony over choices, as opposed to straight up dichotomies. You can ask about the outcome of particular actions, and you can ask if an action is good or evil, get a straight up yes/no, and act accordingly. You can stab the divination in the foot with a time constraint, but that gets old quickly. That would be the first tactic I would use as a GM that comes to mind, before I stripped alignment from all the classes and characters/NPCs/monsters completely and replaced it with a motivation based system. [/QUOTE]

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