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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5707705" data-attributes="member: 2011">There are limits. IMO. Obviously, YMMV.For example, I don't want a Stealth skill that uses Cha. It's illogical.Or, an Endurance skill that uses Int.Or, an Athletics skill that uses Wis.Or, a History skill that uses Con.Just like I don't want a sword attack that uses Cha. It's illogical.When the definition of Str is "strength measures your character’s physical power", I want powers and skills and abilities that are physical power in nature to be based on strength.Ditto for the rest of the abilities scores.Otherwise, we should get rid of the Martial Power source completely and have different types of Martial Magic Power sources.These really aren't flavor choices.And btw, the reason I think there shouldn't be Arcane healing is because of what Arcane magic has meant in D&D for nearly 4 decades. Except for a few minor side spells/powers and such, Arcane healing is pretty darn rare and corner case (until 4E and to a lot lesser extent, 3E Bards). I wouldn't really mind it if the designers made Arcane healing a Tier 3 or even a Tier 2 ability for a few select classes, but it should never be a Tier 1 ability. The class role of the class shouldn't dictate the strengths of the power source (since class role shouldn't exist).Plus, Arcane magic can do healing differently. It can hand out temporary hit points or damage resistance. The magic protects the PC before damage occurs instead of knitting bones afterwards.I am ok with a tiny amount of Arcane healing, but what happens is that once one opens the door a tiny bit, it gets opened more and more until eventually, we get the Bard singing a silly song and wounds magically knit. The Bard does this, but it is impossible for the Wizard or the Warlock or the Sorcerer, even though they all use the same power source. The magic from the same power source doesn't work the same for all of the classes using that power source.That's a bit backwards to me.To me, any PC in the same power source should have the ability to use similar powers to varying degrees. If teleporting is part of the Arcane shtick, all arcane classes should eventually be able to do it.If healing is part of the Primal shtick, all primal classes should eventually be able to do it.If channeling the radiant power of a god is part of the Divine shtick, all divine classes should eventually be able to do it.Power source based, not role based. Role is artificial and game mechanics driven. Power source is plausibly driven and not mechanically driven.When role is used, people have to then come up with the most convoluted rationals to describe why such and such class can do such and such ability. When class/power source is used, it just makes sense for the most part to most people.Segregating abilities by power source controls them as part of design. Segregating them by role forces a lot of weird and flaky things into the game. Class powers based on roles are bad. Class powers based on power sources are better because they make better narrative sense.It makes sense that the Paladin can turn undead. It makes less sense that the Rogue can turn undead (not that 4E has crossed that line).And when it comes down to it, all game elements should make narrative sense to a majority of players. When it doesn't, that's when people stop playing the game. A significant percentage of players that did not migrate to 4E did so because many game elements stopped making narrative sense.Player 1: "What do you mean that the Bard can heal right out of the box at level one multiple times per encounter, but my Druid cannot heal until level 16 as a Daily? That's not D&D."By changing the role of the Druid, the 4E designers took away a very significant class feature and they handed it to the Bard who had it in a more minor way. They significantly altered both of those classes. Bards went from being jacks of all trades (including a small amount of healing) in 3E to major healers in 4E.That's not a flavor change.Roles are lame at the class level, they are good at the power level. The gaming community has been convinced that roles are a good concept at the class level for three years now. People should take a step back from roles and see where they really belong.If I as a player need to do a lot of damage to a foe, I pull out one of my striker powers. My striker power might not be as powerful as a Rogue striker power, but it's still a solid damaging single target power. The Rogue does it with a weapon. As a Psion, I do it with my mind. A Wizard does it with arcane force or elemental power.That's where the freedom should be that you are talking about. Every class should be able to do a bit of a niche of every role, but they should do it based on which powers they pick. Not solely on which class they pick.But that doesn't mean that every class should be able to do every game mystical capability like teleport, heal, fly, or go invisible.And Leader does not mean healing. It means helping out other PCs. That's game mechanics driven in 4E.</blockquote>

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