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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5708851" data-attributes="member: 2011">Your earlier claim was that it was trivial to fly for an entire encounter and to be permanently out of reach of the enemy for the whole encounter. That's just not true. It's hard to get encounter long worthwhile flight, even at Paragon. Very few classes can get it at Paragon.As you suggested, I looked it up. The vast majority of fly at Paragon are an effect of the power that is used right away, or lasts for a turn. So, you were mistaken on that.And the vast majority of the lasts until end of encounter ones are level 20 Dailies and specific to a Paragon Path, or they have some other limit. Several of the lasts until end of encounter ones are limited such that the PC cannot attack.There are exactly two non-Paragon Path classes that can get flight at level 16: Druid and Wizard. It uses a Daily in both cases and for the Wizard, it requires a sustain.Platinum Wings, turnBlinding Talons, attackStorm's Rebuke, effectSorcerous Wings, turnAngelic Aura, encounter, Paragon PathBreath of the Four Winds, effectWings of Devilry, effectDraconic Leap, effectZephyr Wings, encounter, Paragon Path, sustainSoaring, All-Seeing, effectDustwalk, effectDragon Wings, effectSoaring Falcon, encounter, Paragon Path, cannot do much like attackCharge the Clouds, effectStormwalker, encounter or until attack hits you, Paragon PathStorm Step, encounter, Paragon PathSteps on the Purple Stair, turnFlurry of Talons, effectFalcon's Rent, effectInsect Plague, encounter, cannot do much like attackFalcon's Flight, encounterCloak of Shadow, effect, cannot attackFly, encounter, sustainDuel in the Heavens, effectAngel Ascendant, Paragon Path, encounterStorm Dragon Rage, Paragon Path, encounter, must hit to fly, must land each turnCelestial Skirmish, effectFour Winds Tempest, effectDraconic Avatar, Paragon Path, encounterStarry Transformation, Paragon Path, encounterShadow Transformation, Paragon Path, encounterForm of the Radiant Couatl, Paragon Path, encounterPrimal Eagle, Paragon Path, encounter, must land each turnDivine Aspect, Paragon Path, encounterThere's even a Paragon Path that can fly anytime the player wants.But as difficult or limiting as it is to acquire fly at Paragon, I would hardly call it trivia to do this. It's actually quite rare. Most players won't give up their Paragon Path to acquire a once per day fly.The 11th level Elixer of Flying doesn't have a hover. So sure, a PC could use an Elixer of Flying, but if he gets knocked Prone or Stunned, he's SOL.In fact, getting knocked prone is the antithesis of flying. It doesn't matter if a creature has hover or not, that creature is falling. It might not take damage if it is at a low altitude equals to it's speed in squares, but it is coming down. If it is higher up, it will probably take damage (shy of Acrobatics or other magic).Most acquirable flight occurs in Epic as a Daily power and then only until the end of the encounter. Some of it requires a sustain, so there are sometimes ways to break it.The only flight that happens beyond end of encounter comes from a few Epic level items:Mantle of the Seventh Wind at level 23 and it's a Rare item.Zephyr Boots at level 24.Airstriders at level 25, but you must land each round.There's also Skystrider Horseshoes where a mount gains fly speed at level 18.All of the other items use a Daily power and are also last until the end of the encounter:Winged Boots, rareCloak of the Bat, cannot fight with itCrownring of TchazzarRoc Armor, limited to DruidsPretty much, flying for an entire encounter is pretty rare because most classes cannot get it and the items are uncommon or rare or limited for the most part. Will a DM really hand out 5 copies of the Crownring of Tchazzar?Encounter breaking???I'd hardly call an ability that is extremely hard to get for PCs until late Paragon and can be negated in a variety ways to be encounter breaking. And falling because a foe knocks you prone IS a disadvantage of flight.Alternatively, if the PC Wizard is flying, the NPCs can walk into a building or another room, shut the door behind them, and let him waste his Daily fly. Problem easily solved. It's not that hard to change it from "encounter breaking" to "spell wasting" in many scenarios.As for mounts, I've seen flying mounts teleported or sent to another dimension several times in 4E. Unlike forced movement, here the rider falls (check the errata, it's true). I'd not call a flying mount something that is always a major advantage for PCs. I've never seen a flying mount killed mid-flight in 4E, but that's an easy option as well.All in all, worthwhile encounter long flight is rare or costly to acquire, and somewhat easy to negate. And short term flight has less utility than Teleport. I find your POV unsupportable by the facts on this.The Elixer of Flying is about the only worthwhile option here and since it is an uncommon item, the DM controls it. If it gets abused some way to become "encounter breaking", he just never hands out any more of it. The DM totally controls all of the other fly items as well since none of them are common items. The players only control their Class / Paragon Path selections and that's pricey. Flying mounts? Let PCs have them. They are easy to kill, even in mid-flight. I'm not seeing where the players can definitively take advantage here. They'd really have to work at it for little gain.I don't think it is anywhere near as abusable as you claim.Teleport on the other hand has high utility encounter in and encounter out starting at level one, and it's easy to acquire via race, class, items, and even feats.And obviously, short range teleport is only visible if the foe has line of sight to both points. Long range teleport? Not in my game unless we are talking a portal that shows the destination. Rituals would not show destination unless they state so like Linked Portal (seeing a teleportation circle in a room on the other side of the world typically doesn't tell the viewer where it goes).</blockquote>

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