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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nemesis Destiny" data-source="post: 5711205" data-attributes="member: 98255">Just as I find it unconvincing that they need to be there for the reasons you are suggesting. Like I said, this argument's been had before, and nothing we say to each other now is going to change any minds.Adding extra trained skills is hardly unbalancing. Most of the time those skill checks don't matter. For the one time that they do, it hardly unbalances anything, especially if that is the way you've been roleplaying your character all along. That makes it easy for the DM to put their foot down where it concerns any kind of off-skill "arms race." Not in your background, and not ever roleplayed? Sorry, you don't have the bonus.I don't find the same mechanical gyrations you speak of, and I have characters that do those things. I just don't care if there is a rule that spells out how good I am at them. In fact, I prefer that 4e lets me decide how good my bard is at playing his zither, or how well my warlord tells her war stories, or whatever. And if it becomes plot important, then because I've played up those elements already, it's easy to decide that I'm trained and maybe focused too.Obviously your mileage varies, but it seems like little more than PC anatomy measuring to me. *shrug*</blockquote>