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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5715560" data-attributes="member: 996">Both the systems you describe result in characters with 2 non-combat abilities and 2 combat abilities - assuming each ability is balanced, the characters are thus reasonably balanced, no one has 4 combat abilities and no non-combat, for instance.  The first can potentially generate 400 mechanically distinct characters, the second 20.  So, yes, there are more permutations - of characters. There are not more permutations of, say, combat powers.  Now, with the dual-use system, it's possible you could have some powers that have a better-than-average combat effect, and a less-desireable non-combat one (IMHO, given how designers tend to think as a game ages and it gets harder to come up with 'good' material, I'd expect that to become quite prevelent, eventually).  That would end up having the same de-facto effect as trading in non-combat for combat.One thing I liked about 4e's class structure, and would like about a 'silo' aproach is that it's a structure.  It makes it easier to stick to balanced designs... and obvious when you've run out...It's easier to fix one or two broken feats than to fix all the options in a 'LOT of options' combo.</blockquote>