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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 8851103" data-attributes="member: 4937">Nation is a word you really want to avoid because the last thing you want to do is bring up the once primary but now secondary definition of nation.&nbsp; Historically, &quot;nation&quot; was used as a synonym for what we would now call &quot;race&quot; or &quot;ethnicity&quot;.&nbsp; The &quot;nation of France&quot; meant &quot;the group of people descended from the Franks and having the characteristics of that family of mankind&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; The word had the secondary definition of &quot;people living under a shared sovereign&quot;, but this was almost a duplicate of the first in practical terms.&nbsp;&nbsp; The term &quot;empire&quot; in fact meant &quot;many nations (ethnicities) with a shared sovereignty&quot;.&nbsp; Starting with the rise of the United States, the term &quot;nation&quot; started to favor what had been the secondary definition - a group of people part of the same government.&nbsp; That definition is now almost completely dominant, so much so that in the USA at least, we almost never think of &quot;nation&quot; as &quot;ethnicity&quot; (contrast China or Japan).&nbsp;&nbsp; Now think what &quot;nation&quot; implies in somewhere like France where the idea is in transition.No, &quot;nation&quot; is right out.And I have to have a chuckle at the naivety of people who think &quot;folk&quot; is historically less problematic than &quot;race&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp; So much innocence there I won't even discuss why &quot;folk&quot; is bad.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 8851103, member: 4937"] Nation is a word you really want to avoid because the last thing you want to do is bring up the once primary but now secondary definition of nation. Historically, "nation" was used as a synonym for what we would now call "race" or "ethnicity". The "nation of France" meant "the group of people descended from the Franks and having the characteristics of that family of mankind". The word had the secondary definition of "people living under a shared sovereign", but this was almost a duplicate of the first in practical terms. The term "empire" in fact meant "many nations (ethnicities) with a shared sovereignty". Starting with the rise of the United States, the term "nation" started to favor what had been the secondary definition - a group of people part of the same government. That definition is now almost completely dominant, so much so that in the USA at least, we almost never think of "nation" as "ethnicity" (contrast China or Japan). Now think what "nation" implies in somewhere like France where the idea is in transition. No, "nation" is right out. And I have to have a chuckle at the naivety of people who think "folk" is historically less problematic than "race". So much innocence there I won't even discuss why "folk" is bad. [/QUOTE]

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