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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 4291555" data-attributes="member: 22779">But, it is a value judgement.  There are lots and lots of negative connotations associated with the term.  Anyone who has spent any time reading various RPG forums knows that it's a negative term, so it's use, unless used in ignorance (unlikely), is meant as a negative criticism.  No one says, "Hey Edition X is video-gamey YAY!!!"  I realize I cannot objectively prove your preference wrong.  Of course that's true.  I would, however, like to actually know what you, or anyone else, finds wrong in the system.  It may be that I've missed something and we can work together to fix it.  Or, it may be that you have missed something and I can bring it to your attention.  Either way, we can move forward.  Or, we can agree to disagree.  Without any additional information though, we're just spinning our wheels because you cannot know if I understand what you are saying without further qualifying your opinion.Excellent post Pawsplay.  This is EXACTLY what I was looking for.  I may or may not agree with your points, but, at least now we have a starting point for discussion.  Which we didn't before.  Well done you.On a specific note, I think you are mistaken in the skills department.  Yes, there are specific skill challenges, however, that is not the only time skills can be used.  Skills can be used pretty much the same as they could be used in 3e.  There is, though, an additional use in the Skill Challenge.  See, that's how the discussion should go.  Pawsplay has made a very specific criticism, I disagree and present evidence why I think the way I do.  I think Pawsplay has not read the rules and is going by the snippets we've seen from various places and doesn't have the whole picture.I could easily be wrong though.  But, this is how conversation should go.No.  I do want an answer.  There are many here that do.  However, many of us are also veterans of a thousand edition wars where we saw EXACTLY the same criticisms made of another edition.  Word for word exactly.  It wasn't true back then and it probably isn't true now.  I've been riding this horse for years, trying to get people to actually state facts, rather than vague, obscure criticisms that are meaningless.And that's the problem, these hot button words are entirely meaningless.  They don't tell the reader anything, other than "I don't like X".  If you don't like it, say so.  Then say why.  Don't assume that using vague language gets your point across and don't get annoyed when people misunderstand you.Learn to be precise.  Trust me, I'm an English teacher.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Now Delta also comes up with an excellent list of criticisms.  Now we can talk about this.  I'm not sure if video games are the model here though.  Literary characters frequently never actually get hurt.  How long does it take Conan to recover from a fight?  Other than Frodo, how much time does the Fellowship spend in bed?  Heck, after Moria, how much time healing did they take?  It's more just the nature of the game.  We take hits regularly.  Pretty much every fight, at least one character is going to get pummeled.   This is just how RPG's, particularly combat heavy ones like D&D vary from literature.  I can see your point here.  And there are definite similarities.  Just so we're clear, by flashy special abilities, do you mean actual special effects appearances, or just stuff that's not "swing my sword"?  Is Trip in 3e a special ability?  Because a number of the classes don't have particularly visible special abilities - fighters for example and rangers and rogues.  I think there is room for debate here, but, I want to be clear on what we're talking about first.Now this I can actually see.  I see what you are talking about.  I can understand why you might think this way.See, now we can actually have discussion, rather than people shouting from soapboxes.</blockquote>

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