Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 4302535" data-attributes="member: 23619">This was in response to Mustrum. Everyone else after that posted while I was posting. I think your definition of videogames is different from mine. To me, videogames are the big stand-up quarter-hogs, while presumably to you, videogames are what you play on PS3, X-Box or whatever. (To me, those games are just "games" or "Xbox games" or "Playstation games", they're not really "videogames" to me). And in my context, I stand by my comments on the video-gamey-ness of 4e. Not true at all. Fighting games, just to cite an example. Being able to throw a Fireball like Ken or Ryu from Street Fighter is a "special ability" that they can do at will, while something like Ryu's Super Fireball is more of an "encounter" power that they can typically do maybe one or two times in a match. Same with Scorpion's teleport or spear attack or Liu Kang's flying kick. They are at will "powers" that they get in addition to their basic attacks. Ryu doesn't run out of Dragon Punches much in the same way a 4e Fighter doesn't run out of Reaping Strikes. Game computations by a computer have nothing to do with how 4e is like a video game. I didn't say anything about forcing a will save to activate a mark. Just like you don't force a reflex save to activate a fireball. Activate a fireball, target gets his reflex. Same with how it should be for a mark; activate your mark, make it against the target's Will save for it to affect the target. And don't say it takes more time. That's a load of bull! You can roll 2 d20s at the same time you can roll one of them! Designate which one is for the Mark and match that attack roll against the targets Will defense. Problem solved, time game is slowed down = 0 seconds. Yet you just did. That argument is not based on that premise either. Don't put words in my mouth. Needing friends to win is one of the concepts of 4e. It is designed, and even explicitly written, that it is build around a team of 4-5 people working together. That means that the classes, races, skills, monsters, encounters, treasures, all of that, are built around having a group of 4-5 people. So, as designed, if 3-4 other people working with you are required to succeed in any given encounter, then, yes, solo play is impossible with the rules as written. Can a solo game be made, sure, but that will require heavy adjustments on the part of the DM, since even with monsters being scalable, they are scalable in power to a party of 4-5 people, not a single person.Also, we're not talking about baseball here and then switching to one man video games, that's just a red herring.   No, its not simplistic, its rather profound and more importantly, accurate. And I didn't imply what you wrote in that quote, those are your assumptions. However, since you brought it up, lets use two popular fighting game icons; Scorpion and Sub Zero. Both are ninjas, both are cool. Both have an energy power (fire or ice). Both have a stunning power (harpoon to the chest/face or freezing ice blast). Both have "escapes" (teleport away from incoming attacks to Donkey Punch the enemy or create ice clone to intercept attack while flipping away). And a few other theme-related powers each. One doesn't really have an edge or a difference over the other except in how their powers are executed. You play based on whether you want to freeze someone or chuck a spear into someone's chest and drag their reeling carcass over for an uppercut from hell. Any two characters in 4e are pretty much like that. They will both have X number of at will and encounter powers and other than that, basically the same saving throws, bab, same number of feats and same basic attacks. The only difference is in how its packaged.   The things is, whether you realize it or not, it is true. In the context of that cartoon, if everyone had super powers (whether they came from technology, mutation or some other "gift"), who would really be "super"?Now apply the same to 4e. If everyone gets at will and encounter powers, no one is really special anymore and now everything is a power in 4e. You can call what a wizard does a spell, but since it no longer requires "casting", meaning no chance of disruption, and there are no components involved anymore (except in rituals), then its more of a super power. Same thing with Fighters. If every Fighter can Cleave or Reaping Strike, he no more or less special than the next Fighter doing the same thing, since they'll all have about the same AC, same hp, armor and weapons. There's very little room for variation and then you've still got them effectively forced into the same role regardless of who else is in their group.  I never said anything to that effect. Again, don't put words into my mouth and assume that your opinions about what I say are my own. And my statements either make my claim or they support/defend/explain my claims. And for every quote you can get to support your point, just as many can be found to negate it.  And if you don't think it has much to do with roleplaying, fine. That's your opinion. But your opinion doesn't disprove my assertions. Actually, they do. Maybe not where the player controls the number of spaces, or which spaces exactly, but the computer executing the game does. And the point of that statement was that when the game started becoming more tangible, less imaginative, more rules-intensive, that's when it became more video-gamey. AoOs were just the catalyst, but when you start having to worry about precisely where your character moves (unless it was something the DM absolutely needed to know for like a trap or something) and track that, then it became more like a video game.  Again, you're assuming I feel that way. Don't. Everyone knows what happens when you assume.... True, I brought up a single example to make a point. If you want to start counting examples. There are more examples to support my point in 4e than there are in other editions.  With BAB being the same for everyone of a given level, fighters are no longer the dominators in melee combat. A high strength rogue or ranger with a few good feats can out perform a fighter now in raw hits, whereas before even with feats or whatever, a fighter had a bab that others wouldn't get. And wizard spells of a given level are commensurate with the damage anyone else can do, while the things that set them apart (fly, invisibility, teleport, etc.) are now essentially parlor tricks that last for 1 round or they have been removed from the game entirely (necromatic, summoning, polymorph). Not the same exactly, but they're not too far different either. A ranger and warlock making ranged attacks are going to be doing similar damage with some variation on other effects tied into that attack. An arrow or bolt of energy is used but the effect is basically the same; taking x damage.   This isn't an edition war. And it hasn't evolved into one either. And with this thread going to at least 12 pages, that means the mods here agree with that. Again, never said anything about like or dislike. Please don't insert assumptions. I have nothing against the concept of it, if there was an exception or escape from it (such as a check against the target's Will). A 1st level Fighter marking a 4th level Fighter just doesn't hold water. The 1st level guy is not skilled enough or even a credible threat to the 4th level guy to occupy his time or penalize him if he doesn't "pay attention" to him. At least the Will save gives a chance to avoid or shut down the mark especially in situations where it shouldn't logically apply.</blockquote>

Verification