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What qualifies a creature as an extraplanar outsider, an extraplanar animal/humanoid/etc or an extraplanar native outsider?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6271632" data-attributes="member: 95493"><p>On the link you gave me there is nothing saying their TYPE is Outsider (native). They are native to Limbo, but they are not Outsider (native) as far as I can tell. Please quote a specific section if I missed it - after reading [MENTION=6701124]Cadence[/MENTION]'s post I only did a quick search.</p><p></p><p>Basically if I/we are right, then they are Outsiders only. Maybe Outsider (chaos) or some such but I'm not sure of their exact type. They are NOT native outsiders simply because they say "native to" on their page. They would have to be native to the material plane, like Aasimars, Teiflings, and even Couatl [LG Large outsider (native)] are. Link: <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/couatl" target="_blank">http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/couatl</a></p><p></p><p>No, the word native applies to something that when banished returns to the mortal plane. What you are talking about is a creature native to Limbo, and will be banished back to Limbo, and is an Outsider. That subtype it has (when not on Limbo) is extraplanar. (Native) is permanent. (Extraplanar) is transient, applying when not on their home plane.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Show me an actual stat-block that says Outsider (native), like Couatl above, that is native to a plane other than the material. It is not applied haphazardly, though I don't discount that somewhere a writer may have done so incorrectly. It has a specific meaning and may have done wrong if you do have an actual example.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What? Link me an actual stat-block to a non-outsider that is native to the planes (celestial, etc. templates actually do NOT apply, they are templates applied to other creatures). The part I am disputing is the non-outsider part. A extraplanar non-outsider on the planes is not that rare, since a human just loafing around on the astral gains that. I didn't think that was what you meant. I assumed you meant creatures that should be outsiders and aren't or creatures that are outsiders and shouldn't be. Sorry for the confusion if that was unclear.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I did a quick search for the celestial template in PF, I can't find an actual template on the PFSRD. I can find a "simple template" which is not the same. Just based on the quick conversion rule that it gives, you are right.</p><p></p><p>Essentially, the quick rebuild rules don't give direct guidance but based on 3.5 material the creature type should not change, but it comes naturalized to the outer planes. It loses the extraplanar subtype but its type doesn't change to outsider. It becomes planar without losing its orignal type, it doesn't become an outsider simply because it is celestial.</p><p></p><p>[sblock]3.5 Type and Subtype:</p><p>Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Celestial creatures encountered on the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype.[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>However looking at the half-celestial template it does clearly say, "Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves." Which means that half-celestials are native to the material plane, they would gain the extraplanar subtype when off of it, just like a human.</p><p></p><p>Also, just because celestial versions of other creatures are common on the planes, doesn't mean they are the common creature of the planes. That is to say, just because some humans may live in a settlement somewhere on the planes, doesn't mean they are the normal denizens of that plane, they'd still be outnumbered by Devils in Baator/Nine Hells. And they would still be Humanoid (human, extraplanar) and not suddenly Outsider (human, native) or anything odd like that.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Determine its origin. Is it a creature originally from the planes, one that becomes naturalized to the planes, other? If it born to and belongs to the planes then it is probably Outsider, if it becomes an outsider then you could end up changing its type, or just giving it the extraplanar subtype. And if it is NOT originally of the planes, like a human, or any creature originally from the material plane then decide its type as a magical beast, aberration, etc. It is not arbitary, it is based on origin. That is why I originally said that a devil born on the material plane may or may not have the extraplanar subtype, but tried to say that it probably wouldn't have the native one. Just because it was born or even lives there does not mean it belongs there. It is a different thing entirely. Native Outsiders are native to the material plane, the reason for the subtype is to denote just such a thing. To say that they are NOT from an outer plane. It would be like having a "mortal" subtype if the Type was called Immortal. Or a corporeal subtype if the type was called incorporeal. It denotes not native to anything but the material, when the type says that this creature is native to an outer plane. Extraplanar is applied completely independently from that. There is no conflict (not even oxymoronicly) to have both subtypes at once. If an aasimar goes to any plane other than the material then he gains the extraplanar and KEEPS the native subtype.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tovec, post: 6271632, member: 95493"] On the link you gave me there is nothing saying their TYPE is Outsider (native). They are native to Limbo, but they are not Outsider (native) as far as I can tell. Please quote a specific section if I missed it - after reading [MENTION=6701124]Cadence[/MENTION]'s post I only did a quick search. Basically if I/we are right, then they are Outsiders only. Maybe Outsider (chaos) or some such but I'm not sure of their exact type. They are NOT native outsiders simply because they say "native to" on their page. They would have to be native to the material plane, like Aasimars, Teiflings, and even Couatl [LG Large outsider (native)] are. Link: [url]http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/couatl[/url] No, the word native applies to something that when banished returns to the mortal plane. What you are talking about is a creature native to Limbo, and will be banished back to Limbo, and is an Outsider. That subtype it has (when not on Limbo) is extraplanar. (Native) is permanent. (Extraplanar) is transient, applying when not on their home plane. Show me an actual stat-block that says Outsider (native), like Couatl above, that is native to a plane other than the material. It is not applied haphazardly, though I don't discount that somewhere a writer may have done so incorrectly. It has a specific meaning and may have done wrong if you do have an actual example. What? Link me an actual stat-block to a non-outsider that is native to the planes (celestial, etc. templates actually do NOT apply, they are templates applied to other creatures). The part I am disputing is the non-outsider part. A extraplanar non-outsider on the planes is not that rare, since a human just loafing around on the astral gains that. I didn't think that was what you meant. I assumed you meant creatures that should be outsiders and aren't or creatures that are outsiders and shouldn't be. Sorry for the confusion if that was unclear. I did a quick search for the celestial template in PF, I can't find an actual template on the PFSRD. I can find a "simple template" which is not the same. Just based on the quick conversion rule that it gives, you are right. Essentially, the quick rebuild rules don't give direct guidance but based on 3.5 material the creature type should not change, but it comes naturalized to the outer planes. It loses the extraplanar subtype but its type doesn't change to outsider. It becomes planar without losing its orignal type, it doesn't become an outsider simply because it is celestial. [sblock]3.5 Type and Subtype: Animals or vermin with this template become magical beasts, but otherwise the creature type is unchanged. Size is unchanged. Celestial creatures encountered on the Material Plane have the extraplanar subtype.[/sblock] However looking at the half-celestial template it does clearly say, "Type: The creature's type changes to outsider (native). Do not recalculate HD, BAB, or saves." Which means that half-celestials are native to the material plane, they would gain the extraplanar subtype when off of it, just like a human. Also, just because celestial versions of other creatures are common on the planes, doesn't mean they are the common creature of the planes. That is to say, just because some humans may live in a settlement somewhere on the planes, doesn't mean they are the normal denizens of that plane, they'd still be outnumbered by Devils in Baator/Nine Hells. And they would still be Humanoid (human, extraplanar) and not suddenly Outsider (human, native) or anything odd like that. Determine its origin. Is it a creature originally from the planes, one that becomes naturalized to the planes, other? If it born to and belongs to the planes then it is probably Outsider, if it becomes an outsider then you could end up changing its type, or just giving it the extraplanar subtype. And if it is NOT originally of the planes, like a human, or any creature originally from the material plane then decide its type as a magical beast, aberration, etc. It is not arbitary, it is based on origin. That is why I originally said that a devil born on the material plane may or may not have the extraplanar subtype, but tried to say that it probably wouldn't have the native one. Just because it was born or even lives there does not mean it belongs there. It is a different thing entirely. Native Outsiders are native to the material plane, the reason for the subtype is to denote just such a thing. To say that they are NOT from an outer plane. It would be like having a "mortal" subtype if the Type was called Immortal. Or a corporeal subtype if the type was called incorporeal. It denotes not native to anything but the material, when the type says that this creature is native to an outer plane. Extraplanar is applied completely independently from that. There is no conflict (not even oxymoronicly) to have both subtypes at once. If an aasimar goes to any plane other than the material then he gains the extraplanar and KEEPS the native subtype. [/QUOTE]
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What qualifies a creature as an extraplanar outsider, an extraplanar animal/humanoid/etc or an extraplanar native outsider?
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