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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6273494" data-attributes="member: 95493">The problem you seem to be running into is that you want outsiders to be both (a) a type that means a creature is not from the material plane, and (b) split up into various different types. You have a problem with both Outsiders being monolithic and yet when they are NOT monolithic. Which makes me wonder what you actually want.Also, if this had been your purpose from the start then there is no reason you should have begun with the native and extraplanar outsiders stuff.Further, lovecraftian monsters should NOT be outsiders (they don't come from the outer planes - they come from beyond the multiverse entirely), nor should most fey, magical beasts, and so on. The celestial template perhaps should turn the creature into an Outsider, but the rationalization of why it does not is similarly clear. It is not created of the essence of the outer planes, it is not an outsider by that definition. I looked at devourers too, they're ethereal natives and therefore not really outsiders. Though I suppose of one was on Hades or something and started devouring an outsider I could see how you could think it applies. But in that case I think the Undead type applies much more greatly.Is this your issue? Seems like a fine one to have (I don't mean fine as in good, I mean as in precise). In such a case I think it is a matter of the designers not wanting to make more work than it is worth. You'll also notice that Humanoids have d8s despite fighters having d10s, barbarians d12s and wizards having d4s. But basic humanoids with levels in nothing but humanoids have d8s regardless if they are strong, fast, smart or anything else. It comes down to what level of granularity the designers want, and I do not fault them for making outsiders have a d10. Also, as I explained further back, that is the default not the automatic. So, while outsiders may have darkvision 60, some may not have that and others may have darkvision 200 - it is all a matter of degrees of variation from the norm, and that norm seems to make sense.So, if you are truly wondering "So the problem I run into is that, when designing a creature from the  planes, on what criteria should I decide to make it an outsider as  opposed to any other type?" as you say last quote.. then use the default as it is and vary it as you need to - something I've been saying since the start. Is the creature a pure outsider made of outer planes essence? Then it is an outsider. Is it undead? Then its undead. Is is a creature that is made of the material plane but now living on the outer planes? Then consult the material plane aspect. If this confuses you (which I honestly doubt it does) then I am amazed how you function when creating a monster for the material plane.In fact I'll ask again, what is the problem? That you don't know what type to make things when making something for the outer planes? Or that you WANT to be confused when doing so?If by "celestial/fiendish/etc" you mean the template? Then no. You are wrong, still. Bring up good examples for this argument please. All manner of undead can be made of fiends (or outsiders in general). I can only presume your problem is that undead on the other plane are still typed Undead instead of Outsider? That is because while they are undead they are .. Undead. It has nothing to do with a dual soul. It has to do with the state of the soul. Outsiders do have souls, it just happens that their bodies are their soul, whereas humanoids have a soul that is separate from their body and can be removed without affecting the body (when dead)As far as I know there is no canon world of the fey. They are of the material plane. Even if there was a faerie realm (like from the manual of the planes) that still would not make them Outsiders, as that plane is NOT an outer realm. Swing and a miss.YOU have that implication. It is not implied beyond what you repeat that it should be implied. It says that Outsiders are from the Outer Planes, it does not say that they are the only ones, nor anything of the sort. It is not an unwritten rule of any kind. If you find it confusing I am sorry, but the term itself is not all that much more confusing than Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, or Aberration - those are equally 'confusing' and there are likely others that could be added to this list. My point, perhaps, is that your own personal confusion is not enough of a reason to say something is wrong. If I don't follow the mechanics of psionics, it doesn't mean they are wrong, just that I somehow fail to understand what others can see clearly.Why replace the name with exemplar? If your objection is that outsiders should be both broader to encompass all things on the planes, and yet not nearly as broad since there are exceptions - then the rename does nothing.Beyond that, exemplar already has a meaning, but granted that is a fairly minor point. But you raise a good point, deities have avatars.. but in that case the exemplars you name AREN'T exemplars.. since only the true 'exemplar races' would be. And it still rules out all the others that you don't name here that aren't exemplars. AND all you are trying to do is make more magical beasts? Heck, elementals already have their own type!I guess my point here is that it doesn't solve your problem with a rename, if you think "stench kows" should be magical beasts then there is nothing stopping you - but does an evil outsider bane weapon no longer work on them - even though they are creatures entirely made of outer planes essence, unlike say a chimera? Do the stench kows now need food? Will they die without air to breathe?Also, where would the couatl belong in your typing system? I assume the planetouched subtype would replace 'native' but what about things that aren't humanoid? I don't doubt that a perfect system could account for such things, I do doubt the point and effort that is required to get there. How fine (again precision) do you go with this? To what end?If you are going down this road, I'll recommend (I think I already did in another thread) looking at the 4e MMs. They do a retype involving the body shape - but I don't see what real value it adds. If you can see the creature you can tell if it is humanoid or not. Does it add a meaningful change? Can you make a humanoid bane weapon that works on them? Why or why not?</blockquote>

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