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Message: <blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 7102503" data-attributes="member: 6704184">No one is arguing that a thing which is invisible and silent is auto-detected. I've no idea where you're even getting that from. Individual examples can be useful, and are only of any value in discussing if they are. Nit picking them is literally never useful. It's a rhetorical tactic that makes actual discussion less likely to occur. Also, you're wrong about this example illustrating that the rules don't work well. It illustrates perfectly that they do. Because by the rules, it's up the DM whether the thing is hidden. It's not automatic in either direction. Which is as it should be. And that is the case for creatures who aren't invisible as well, btw. If a regular guy is behind a thick curtain, in a noisy room, and the DM doesn't think he would make any visible impact on how the curtain falls, the DM isn't houseruling to say he is hidden, regardless of any actions taken. Likewise, the DM isn't houseruling to say that an invisible creature isn't hidden, unless it tries to hide. All running as they should be.</blockquote>