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What separates a sandbox adventure from an AP?
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<blockquote data-quote="edhel" data-source="post: 6553823" data-attributes="member: 20296"><p>Here's my <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357978-DMing-Sandboxes-and-Boring-Dungeons-HELP/page2&p=6356202#post6356202" target="_blank">general sandbox advice</a> from an earlier sandbox thread.</p><p></p><p>Now to specifics:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd say most AD&D location-based adventures are mini sandboxes, and there some very sandbox-y modules even for 3rd edition, like The Red Hand of Doom or the Castle Ravenloft adventure book. Most modules and their adventure locations can be inserted into your sandbox.</p><p></p><p>What I'd like to see is interesting cultural bits, plot hooks, plot points (mini adventures or conflicts), possible sandbox premises etc. If there are ruins, don't describe them but make a ruin generator (a random table). That kind of stuff - tools you can both read, use, and reuse.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The introduction: My problem with your example is that there's nothing at stake. If you want players be interested, start the game by having something they care about. Some jackass king telling them something doesn't hook ~anyone, sorry to say. Who is this guy anyway and why should they care what problems he has?</p><p>Let the players invent something for their characters - families, businesses, goals - and threaten that with your sandbox's metaplot. The players will have their characters respond organically to threats if they are internally motivated. Not knowing what to do next means they don't care about things enough, or the threats aren't specific enough.</p><p><em>Be intimate</em> with your threats - forget about 'saving the world/kingdom/magic gem'.</p><p></p><p>Player vs monster level: This is a very system-specific problem but I haven't really encountered much problems with 5e. I foreshadow tough encounters, and the characters usually have an opportunity to escape if things turn sour. If they get killed, they get killed. Getting captured is more fun though. Getting ransomed is even better since it's humiliating and gives internal motivation to the players.</p><p></p><p>The conclusion: I plan sandboxes from the antagonists' perspective. When the players have discovered the BBEG's plan and are motivated to stop it, we'll play to see what happens. If they're not that interested in the grand machinations, we'll stop at a dramatically appropriate place. You can always play another set of characters in the same sandbox, and possibly even return to the old ones at some point.</p><p></p><p>Player paralysis: They aren't motivated and/or they don't know what's going on. Your premises should be about something immediate that needs to be dealt with that leads to something larger. Make it human and understandable. All the fantasy stuff around the basic premise is just a tool for the main antagonist. Players should understand the motivations of the antagonists through their actions, and not wonder why magic wand #6 is so critical for magic stone #8's guardian unicorn spirit. My general advice <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357978-DMing-Sandboxes-and-Boring-Dungeons-HELP/page2&p=6356202#post6356202" target="_blank">link</a> has more on this. Also remember that you aren't creating a story or the plot, you are just setting the premise and a loose campaign framework that you don't completely have to think through in the beginning. We humans are able to create mental narratives out of completely chaotic things all the time. </p><p></p><p>Example: An old wizard lives in the Dreamlands and wants to come back to the waking world after being away a thousand years. His tools are his gug lieutenants who recruit waking world witches who in turn recruit young bravos of the local native tribes. The young fighters of these tribes get organized and start gathering for war. They are motivated to take back their lands from the Old Empire, and they are also handsomely rewarded by the wizard's dream-gold. Now, the player characters live their quiet lives in a small fishing village and the campaign starts when the natives attack the village and steal something from the graveyard. Ultimately the wizard's plan is to kill enough natives (all marked with the wizard's symbol) to power his wizardry to bring him back to the waking world.</p><p>The story isn't about the wizard, it's about the player characters, their lives, and how they will rise up to the challenge. One PC's daughter was kidnapped in the first raid, they can't kill hundreds or thousands of warriors (and shouldn't), and the people they know are threatened. You don't need a king to say anything to them.</p><p></p><p>Setting material: If they don't read it, it's a waste. Fictional history is (imho) boring and usually useless unless it directly relates to the premise. You can write about fictional history endlessly as easily as people can ignore it. Imagine a historical non-literate person and imagine how much he would know about the history of his town and land. Not much. Write about that much. When the characters adventure it might be important to learn more ("Who was this wizard guy anyway? Why are the tribes angry at us?").</p><p>Calendars and tracking time are important, and you could write about harvest time and the holy/special days. Those will come up at some point and they add color to the world. Maybe the winter solstice is actually a corrupted form of Wizard-worship. Factions and churches are only interesting if you have interesting ideas. Anyone can come up with another thieves' guild, secret society, mad cult etc. Unless the Church of Uranium Crown is relevant to the sandbox's premise, you can let the players invent their own religions and customs. It's more fun that way and less work for you. Or you could make create-your-own-religion tables and find out that in the Big City they worship *roll* the Red Deer who *roll* demands obedience and *roll* whose eunuch priests wear tall hats and *roll* help the poor but *roll* are jealous bigots and *roll* don't like meat-eating.</p><p></p><p>Ok I'm done.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="edhel, post: 6553823, member: 20296"] Here's my [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357978-DMing-Sandboxes-and-Boring-Dungeons-HELP/page2&p=6356202#post6356202"]general sandbox advice[/URL] from an earlier sandbox thread. Now to specifics: I'd say most AD&D location-based adventures are mini sandboxes, and there some very sandbox-y modules even for 3rd edition, like The Red Hand of Doom or the Castle Ravenloft adventure book. Most modules and their adventure locations can be inserted into your sandbox. What I'd like to see is interesting cultural bits, plot hooks, plot points (mini adventures or conflicts), possible sandbox premises etc. If there are ruins, don't describe them but make a ruin generator (a random table). That kind of stuff - tools you can both read, use, and reuse. The introduction: My problem with your example is that there's nothing at stake. If you want players be interested, start the game by having something they care about. Some jackass king telling them something doesn't hook ~anyone, sorry to say. Who is this guy anyway and why should they care what problems he has? Let the players invent something for their characters - families, businesses, goals - and threaten that with your sandbox's metaplot. The players will have their characters respond organically to threats if they are internally motivated. Not knowing what to do next means they don't care about things enough, or the threats aren't specific enough. [I]Be intimate[/I] with your threats - forget about 'saving the world/kingdom/magic gem'. Player vs monster level: This is a very system-specific problem but I haven't really encountered much problems with 5e. I foreshadow tough encounters, and the characters usually have an opportunity to escape if things turn sour. If they get killed, they get killed. Getting captured is more fun though. Getting ransomed is even better since it's humiliating and gives internal motivation to the players. The conclusion: I plan sandboxes from the antagonists' perspective. When the players have discovered the BBEG's plan and are motivated to stop it, we'll play to see what happens. If they're not that interested in the grand machinations, we'll stop at a dramatically appropriate place. You can always play another set of characters in the same sandbox, and possibly even return to the old ones at some point. Player paralysis: They aren't motivated and/or they don't know what's going on. Your premises should be about something immediate that needs to be dealt with that leads to something larger. Make it human and understandable. All the fantasy stuff around the basic premise is just a tool for the main antagonist. Players should understand the motivations of the antagonists through their actions, and not wonder why magic wand #6 is so critical for magic stone #8's guardian unicorn spirit. My general advice [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357978-DMing-Sandboxes-and-Boring-Dungeons-HELP/page2&p=6356202#post6356202"]link[/URL] has more on this. Also remember that you aren't creating a story or the plot, you are just setting the premise and a loose campaign framework that you don't completely have to think through in the beginning. We humans are able to create mental narratives out of completely chaotic things all the time. Example: An old wizard lives in the Dreamlands and wants to come back to the waking world after being away a thousand years. His tools are his gug lieutenants who recruit waking world witches who in turn recruit young bravos of the local native tribes. The young fighters of these tribes get organized and start gathering for war. They are motivated to take back their lands from the Old Empire, and they are also handsomely rewarded by the wizard's dream-gold. Now, the player characters live their quiet lives in a small fishing village and the campaign starts when the natives attack the village and steal something from the graveyard. Ultimately the wizard's plan is to kill enough natives (all marked with the wizard's symbol) to power his wizardry to bring him back to the waking world. The story isn't about the wizard, it's about the player characters, their lives, and how they will rise up to the challenge. One PC's daughter was kidnapped in the first raid, they can't kill hundreds or thousands of warriors (and shouldn't), and the people they know are threatened. You don't need a king to say anything to them. Setting material: If they don't read it, it's a waste. Fictional history is (imho) boring and usually useless unless it directly relates to the premise. You can write about fictional history endlessly as easily as people can ignore it. Imagine a historical non-literate person and imagine how much he would know about the history of his town and land. Not much. Write about that much. When the characters adventure it might be important to learn more ("Who was this wizard guy anyway? Why are the tribes angry at us?"). Calendars and tracking time are important, and you could write about harvest time and the holy/special days. Those will come up at some point and they add color to the world. Maybe the winter solstice is actually a corrupted form of Wizard-worship. Factions and churches are only interesting if you have interesting ideas. Anyone can come up with another thieves' guild, secret society, mad cult etc. Unless the Church of Uranium Crown is relevant to the sandbox's premise, you can let the players invent their own religions and customs. It's more fun that way and less work for you. Or you could make create-your-own-religion tables and find out that in the Big City they worship *roll* the Red Deer who *roll* demands obedience and *roll* whose eunuch priests wear tall hats and *roll* help the poor but *roll* are jealous bigots and *roll* don't like meat-eating. Ok I'm done. [/QUOTE]
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