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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9613341" data-attributes="member: 6790260">...yes. That was literally the point. Use classic psychological manipulation techniques in order to make that happen more often. That's...literally what I'm claiming.Because you have to actually hit the attack rolls. And you have to get the guards to decide that you should be able. And you have to convince the nobility. And, and, and, and, and.It's never one single moment, and it's emphatically NOT vulnerable to psychological manipulation techniques that make power creep seem reasonable. The Wizard? They only need one moment: casting the spell and psychologically manipulating the DM into accepting something. Just one act. Not dozens.No. What I'm arguing is that you're baking in &quot;psychologically manipulate your DM until they give you as much of what you want as you can squeeze out of them&quot; is a bad rule, because it's an official rule that empowers only one archetype to do this thing, while forbidding any other archetype from doing so.Giving one archetype official, explicit, mechanical support for psychological manipulation as a pathway to greater power, while confining every other archetype to &quot;you can only use the mechanics that already exist, and you'll have to jump through that hoop over and over&quot;, directly fosters not just unfair advantage, but problematic player behaviors and DM-player arms races that very specifically push both sides to behave in mutually antagonistic ways.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9613341, member: 6790260"] ...yes. That was literally the point. Use classic psychological manipulation techniques in order to make that happen more often. That's...literally what I'm claiming. Because you have to actually hit the attack rolls. And you have to get the guards to decide that you should be able. And you have to convince the nobility. And, and, and, and, and. It's never one single moment, and it's emphatically NOT vulnerable to psychological manipulation techniques that make power creep seem reasonable. The Wizard? They only need one moment: casting the spell and psychologically manipulating the DM into accepting something. Just one act. Not dozens. No. What I'm arguing is that you're baking in "psychologically manipulate your DM until they give you as much of what you want as you can squeeze out of them" [I]is a bad rule[/I], because it's an official rule that empowers [I]only one archetype[/I] to do this thing, while forbidding any other archetype from doing so. Giving one archetype official, explicit, mechanical support for psychological manipulation as a pathway to greater power, while confining every other archetype to "you can only use the mechanics that already exist, and you'll have to jump through that hoop over and over", directly fosters not just unfair advantage, but problematic player behaviors and DM-player arms races that very specifically push both sides to behave in mutually antagonistic ways. [/QUOTE]

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