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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mephista" data-source="post: 9613412" data-attributes="member: 6786252">Okay.  So.  Magic in general should be able do anything. Specific kinds of magic, such as wizardry, should have specific niches, themes and limitations that they cater to.Traditionally, there are four flavors of "magic" in DND.  Martial, Divine/Primal, Arcane, and sometimes Psionic.  Which kind of corresponds to the <a href="https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PhysicalMysticalTechnological" target="_blank">Physical, Mystical, Technological</a> Trinity trope.Martial magic is mainly focused on the body and it's enhancements. Stamina, Rage, Ki, etc. Its all about what's internal to the body.  This is the Physical. I think its fine that martials are restricted to doing body-things, but i also think that we haven't really explored the full extent of what that means or what they can do without spellcasting.  Far too often, we're just pushing spellcasting onto the subclasses for my taste - I much prefer things like the '24 elemental monk to the pseudo-caster '14 elemental monk. I'd prefer less spellcasting on Shadow Monk, even if its redundant. I'm fine with hybrid subclasses like EK and AT that are specifically meant to be part-spellcaster options as the focus of the subclass. I'm less fine with randomly giving, say, Purple Dragon Knight a ritual for Comprehend Language, or the Totem Barbarian a ritual for exploration. I want to break away from spellcasting in martials as much as possible. I'd also like to see magical-but-not-spellcasting options for weapon masteries granted by subclass as an expanded-spell-list-for-martials equivalent.Divine magic is the mystical side of magic. And, by mystical, I mean that its tied to spirits and gods instead of your self or through learning. Call it what you will - faith, miracles, spirit magic, invocations. Its all about being a conduit for outside forces acting through you.  Channel Divinity (and Wildshape) I think of the defining magic of these classes - at the most basic, its what's going on with every magical action they take. Sure, paladins get their power from an Oath, but that Oath is tying them to a god, a spirit, even a living philosphy, just as  a cleric's blessing does. That god/spirit/whatever is what gives them the spells they prep every day when they choose what spells they "know."  Primal classes are the same - the only difference is that cleric divinity is more of a light/dark slightly-christian-themed duality focus while primal classes focus more on elemental land gods, spirits, and philosphies.Arcane magic (save for Sorcerer*) is the equivalent of science and technology in D&D.  Wizards, warlocks, bards and artificers all rely on learning and knowledge for their magics. Bards learn new Words of Power and incorporate them into art, wizards study books and scrolls and do experiments, artificers mess with magical materials to see what they can do, and warlocks have dedicated tutors as Patrons. They might not be following actual scientific process, but the Arcane -is- dedicated to knowledge gathering in some fashion, and the expansion of knowledge is how Arcane classes grow.  There's no official divide in arcane magic like we have with divine / primal, but with how sorcerer and the other Arcane classes have basically eaten psion's lunch...Psionics has traditionally been about channeling magic inside of you out. Storywise, this covers the same thematic ground as Sorcerer, but with a Mind-Magic focus (similar to bard magics) over an Elemental-Magic focus.  In 5e, psionics has been diluted across some Arcane and some Martial subclasses. PF2 has effectively blended psionics with bardcraft and witchcraft into Occult spellcasting.  It feels like modern D&D clones are moving away from psychics as the 4th spellcaster flavor and moving more towards bardcraft. Which, tbh, I'm fine with - bookish vs tool users works, I think.  I would personally rather see Sorcerer and Psion break away from being spellcasters and be closer to Martials mechanically.  Not necessarily tied to the Attack action like martials, but I'd rather see dragon sorcery act like the Dragonborn do - all non-spellcasting stuff. Mechanically, I do enjoy how, in 5e, most spellcasters have a trim, highly focused core spell list, with subclasses expanding on that list.  What I do wish, however, is that the wizard was forced to conform to that mechanic as well a bit better. Like, every subclass says to take at least one spell from the appropriate spell school. But what about subclasses like Scribe and Bladesinger? Nada. And you still get two spells per wizard level versus one spell-school per two wizard levels. The subclass spells are drowned out.  The wizard needs to tighten up, mainly because of the next point. And it's not just st the wizard, but the 5e bard.  Curated spell lists matter.I kind of spent a lot of time talking about existing flavor and themes in the game, which I do like in D&D.  But there's a lot of BAGGAGE in the game that is getting in the way. The wizard and its history as the premere Magic User one of them. Spellcasters, as a whole, have a lot of advantages, but the point of classes are to create a narrow and highly thematic link of abilities.  That's part of the appeal of class - its a distinct entity with a focus on story elements represented by its class skills.  Spellcasting, by its nature, is a class skill that's a full grab bag of random abilities.  When the class spell list is kept trimmed to appropriate themes, its doable, and it should be. Breaking away from the central theme means that you're diluting what makes the class interesting.   Class fantasy is important to any fantasy RPG, be it pen and paper, PbP, video game, or whatever.  Spell casting needs to serve the class fantasy and enable both players and GM to have fun.</blockquote>

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